Transcript
[1:14] Um dear tiger Sangha,
[1:18] um again welcome to this afternoon's
[1:20] panel.
[1:21] Um I have uh the great pleasure of
[1:28] moderating a conversation with our young
[1:30] scientists here today.
[1:32] Um and to be honest,
[1:34] uh
[1:35] we have uh
[1:37] I wouldn't call it a game plan, you
[1:40] know, but we're going to we're going to
[1:41] move as a spirit
[1:43] tells us to, right? We got we got Ty in
[1:46] front of us, we got the ancestors in our
[1:48] backs. We're we're going to move through
[1:49] this conversation
[1:51] as uh
[1:53] as a spirit moves us. And I um I had
[1:56] invited our panelists to show up and
[1:59] show out fully as themselves. Uh there
[2:02] is no uh the invitation is to let go of
[2:06] any sort of performativity that one
[2:09] might have at a conference and to show
[2:11] up as a whole person
[2:13] um in in this uh panel discussion.
[2:17] And one of the things that is really
[2:19] coming to me right now, um
[2:22] a little bit of
[2:24] background is that uh
[2:26] I am a uh
[2:29] I'm here representing the humanities and
[2:32] the social scientists in the room.
[2:34] Uh I have secretly snuck into the
[2:36] scientist retreat declaring myself also
[2:39] a scientist as well.
[2:41] There you go. I'm here for the
[2:42] humanities. Shout out to the humanities
[2:44] because I think we play a very important
[2:46] role.
[2:48] Uh I think this morning we heard a lot
[2:50] about from
[2:52] um from our panel this morning about the
[2:54] art of not knowing, the art of updating
[2:58] our frameworks, the art of empathy, the
[3:01] art of bringing our whole selves into
[3:03] the work that we do, the data of it all,
[3:06] the information of it all, and all the
[3:08] things. How do we How do we integrate it
[3:10] into our lives so that we actually can
[3:12] make a change or a dent in the world?
[3:13] And it's through the stories we tell.
[3:16] And this is where the humanities steps
[3:18] in.
[3:19] And And so I think on this panel you're
[3:21] going to hear wonderful stories
[3:23] of of these young scientists and the
[3:25] work that they are doing and aspiring to
[3:28] do.
[3:29] And I think this is the data that you
[3:31] get to receive from
[3:34] this morning's panel and this
[3:35] afternoon's panel to update your new
[3:37] models of the world. Okay?
[3:39] Um
[3:40] I'm sharing from the context of someone
[3:43] coming from an American institution.
[3:46] And uh
[3:48] as we all know in the American context
[3:51] right now, there are uh
[3:53] there there's a a deep project in this
[3:56] new administration to uh
[3:59] to undo a lot of the academic freedoms
[4:02] and the academic institution in general.
[4:06] Uh to undo or to dismantle the
[4:08] Department of Education in the American
[4:11] context. So,
[4:13] um protecting and hearing stories of uh
[4:17] of um
[4:19] of young scientists
[4:21] and and young scholars alike is really
[4:23] important to me.
[4:25] Uh this past semester I taught a class
[4:29] uh
[4:30] um on Howard Thurman.
[4:33] And Howard Thurman uh is a black
[4:36] mystical theologian
[4:39] and he is the teacher of uh Martin
[4:42] Luther King Jr. He wrote the book Jesus
[4:45] and the Disinherited.
[4:47] And he and Martin Luther King Jr. had
[4:49] always kept this book in the back of his
[4:51] pocket everywhere he went as he did his
[4:53] civil rights movement.
[4:56] Um and Howard Thurman had written an
[4:58] autobiography.
[5:00] And in this autobiography he recounts a
[5:02] story where he had to tell for the first
[5:04] time explain to his two young daughters
[5:07] what racism is.
[5:09] And the story had stuck with me and I I
[5:12] please allow me to share it with you cuz
[5:13] I think it frames my spirit as I step
[5:16] into moderating this panel.
[5:19] Um
[5:21] At that time Howard Thurman was teaching
[5:22] at Boston University and he brought his
[5:25] daughters to Daytona Beach, Florida to
[5:29] visit his family.
[5:31] And his daughters his young daughters
[5:33] said, "Dad, we want to go to the
[5:34] playground and we want to play."
[5:36] And so he took them to the public
[5:38] playground and then there was a sign
[5:40] there that says, "No Negroes allowed."
[5:45] And he made a conscious decision at that
[5:47] moment to stand there and to explain to
[5:49] the his daughters why they could not
[5:52] play
[5:53] and swing on those swings in a public
[5:56] park.
[5:58] And he said to them,
[6:01] "Listen, girls.
[6:02] You must know how important you are.
[6:05] That the state, that the law, that the
[6:08] mayor, that uh the businesses, the
[6:11] churches, the people of Florida have
[6:14] worked all together to stop you from
[6:16] playing. You have to understand how
[6:18] important you are.
[6:21] You must under You must weigh your worth
[6:23] and your your self-worth and your
[6:25] importance against the amount of power
[6:29] and the amount of force that people are
[6:31] trying to stop you from doing the things
[6:32] that you need to do.
[6:34] Remember how important you are."
[6:37] And this story I think resonates with me
[6:40] in so many ways, but it also resonates
[6:43] with me in ways of protecting the
[6:45] institutions, although not perfect, I
[6:47] That's a caveat. Not perfect. The
[6:49] institutions that allow us to think
[6:52] better together.
[6:54] The institutions that like even like
[6:55] Plum Village that give rise to the
[6:58] chance of generating wisdom together.
[7:01] And so it is a great great honor to be
[7:04] sitting here today on this panel and I
[7:06] would say also a panel of young
[7:09] scientist and then young female
[7:10] identifying scientist at that, which is
[7:12] a big feat in the world of science if
[7:15] you know, um
[7:16] to to share their stories and to learn
[7:19] from their wisdom and to see what we can
[7:22] see together.
[7:23] Because I think at this moment the most
[7:25] important thing that we could do
[7:28] is really sharpen and cultivate our
[7:30] moral imagination.
[7:33] Because things got to be different. They
[7:35] can't stay the same.
[7:37] So how do we take science? How do we
[7:39] take data? How do we take the
[7:40] technologies and sharpen our moral
[7:43] imagination together? It's by listening
[7:46] to the to the present, which was this
[7:47] morning's morning's panel, and then
[7:50] listening to the future.
[7:51] Right? And then also listening to the
[7:53] past where we have the uh the wisdom of
[7:56] our ancestors that have transmitted to
[7:58] us.
[7:59] Um And so this is the spirit of today's
[8:03] panel, right? This morning's panel.
[8:06] And I am going to pass them I'm not
[8:08] going to introduce the uh the the the
[8:10] panelists because I it would be a
[8:12] disservice cuz they are
[8:16] they are humans that contain multitudes.
[8:18] And so the first question I would like
[8:20] to ask our panelists today
[8:22] is to introduce themselves and to tell
[8:25] us what is
[8:27] what's important for us to know about
[8:29] you?
[8:42] Dear Ty, dear Sangha, I've been voted I
[8:45] think voted first.
[8:47] Mm.
[8:49] Dear all, my name is Ally, she/her. Uh
[8:53] in this moment uh traveled from the land
[8:54] of the Huron-Wendat, Seneca,
[8:56] Mississaugas of the Credit, uh also uh
[8:59] sometimes known as Toronto, Canada. Uh
[9:02] here
[9:03] uh partially uh from working from the
[9:05] University of Toronto and uh yeah,
[9:07] delighted to be sitting in this hall.
[9:09] I'll share some different pieces of
[9:11] myself. Sometimes we say uh
[9:13] mindfulness is a practice of making the
[9:15] invisible visible and uh time and space
[9:17] historic dimension, there's just so much
[9:19] visibility, but hopefully playing
[9:21] together we can get to know each other
[9:23] more. Also our translators, I'll be
[9:25] looking out for you. I know when I get
[9:27] excited and passionate and we're going
[9:29] to talk about science and Dharma, I can
[9:32] talk fast, so
[9:33] forgive me in advance.
[9:35] Um
[9:37] maybe something to make visible first
[9:38] about myself is I am sitting between two
[9:41] of my students.
[9:43] Uh and so I'm really excited to share
[9:46] about each of our lives and also how
[9:48] they've intertwined,
[9:50] uh how this practice that we're
[9:51] exploring here informs uh
[9:54] both our work and how we work uh that
[9:57] I've had the opportunity to collaborate
[9:59] with these two humans as well.
[10:01] Uh, so if I make some claims about maybe
[10:03] my intentions or joy in cultivating
[10:06] safe, inclusive spaces where learning
[10:08] can mean not knowing, you've got
[10:10] receipts on either side of me, so we can
[10:12] check in.
[10:14] Mhm.
[10:15] So, I wear a few different hats at the
[10:17] University of Toronto right now. I teach
[10:19] in an undergraduate program, the
[10:21] Buddhism, Psychology, Mental Health
[10:23] program.
[10:24] And I'm jointly appointed to the Temerty
[10:26] Faculty of Medicine,
[10:28] uh, where I conduct research looking at
[10:31] the impact of Thich Nhat Hanh's
[10:33] teachings on physician and more broadly
[10:35] clinician wellness.
[10:37] And I'm also cross-appointed to the
[10:39] Dalai Lama School of Public Health.
[10:42] Um,
[10:44] lots of different titles for me. It's,
[10:46] you know, we can talk more and cook up
[10:47] like, where does this practice flow? How
[10:50] do we, as a qualitative researcher,
[10:52] there's another piece of identity. Um,
[10:56] we like to say instead of, uh, rep-
[10:58] replicability,
[10:59] uh, because especially when we're
[11:01] looking at like behavioral studies, uh,
[11:03] we know we're we're always changing. To
[11:05] say I did something with humans, and the
[11:07] next minute I replicated that exact same
[11:10] thing, I'm not the same human between
[11:13] every breath. Uh, so we like to use this
[11:15] word transferability.
[11:17] Uh, so I say I'm I'm infinitely curious
[11:21] about how this practice,
[11:23] uh, this this
[11:25] these teachings that come to us through
[11:27] the Dharma, through Thich Nhat Hanh,
[11:29] through Plum Village, can transfer if
[11:31] into different spaces. I'm really
[11:33] curious about that.
[11:35] Um, and maybe a little more about me. I
[11:37] I started becoming curious about this,
[11:39] uh, just after my 10th birthday when I
[11:41] went to my first retreat with Thich Nhat
[11:43] Hanh in the Sangha.
[11:45] Uh, so I went through children's
[11:46] program, teen program, flowed right into
[11:49] Wake Up, which is the Young Adults
[11:51] movement. Um, and I can tell you when
[11:54] you come home from a retreat and you're
[11:55] a teen, your friends like, "What were
[11:56] you doing?"
[11:58] Uh,
[11:59] and from a young age I I had this
[12:01] understanding that to transfer these
[12:04] practices, to like listen to my friends
[12:06] with love and compassion,
[12:08] really made a big difference on our
[12:10] relationships, but I didn't have to be
[12:11] like, "Excuse me, I am now listening to
[12:13] you with compassion."
[12:15] Um, so I've been curious for a long time
[12:18] how these practices inform my own inner
[12:20] landscape and how that affects the
[12:22] landscape around me. Um, and as a
[12:25] curious being, uh, research just made
[12:27] sense. So, I'll I I won't say too much
[12:29] more about myself cuz it'll come out in
[12:31] the questions, but I did my
[12:32] undergraduate in fine arts, uh, in
[12:34] filmmaking, cuz I love telling stories.
[12:37] I like to tell my students, a good
[12:39] scientist is also a good storyteller.
[12:42] Because if we don't know how to tell our
[12:44] story, we're just like sitting in a room
[12:46] kind of alone. Um, so I was always love
[12:49] storytelling. So, fine arts, my master's
[12:51] in is environmental studies, looking at
[12:54] actually the environment of a classroom.
[12:56] Uh, my my thesis for my master's was on
[12:59] the road in India with the monastics and
[13:02] Shantum going into schools. Uh, Brother
[13:04] Pháp Dung, if you know him, was signing
[13:06] my field research papers. Um, and
[13:09] cooking up how we bring this into
[13:10] classrooms. And then my PhD,
[13:13] uh, was looking at taking Thay's
[13:15] teachings, um, and encoding a number of
[13:19] his five-day retreats, and then
[13:21] translating that into a five-week
[13:23] program, because as a young PhD student
[13:25] I thought,
[13:26] "I'm going to see how Thay's teachings
[13:28] like impact like clinician
[13:30] decision-making." And then I I
[13:32] discovered that no, uh, there hadn't
[13:34] been research kind of to just start
[13:37] looking at like how to transfer his
[13:39] teachings explicitly. I could find so
[13:41] many research articles, um,
[13:44] that talked about, you know, it seemed
[13:46] like Thay's work, but weren't explicit.
[13:47] So, I thought, "Okay, I'm going to back
[13:48] up and do that."
[13:50] So, I won't say too much else. All this
[13:52] is to just say I'm infinitely curious
[13:55] about how the science and Dharma talk to
[13:57] each other.
[13:59] And, uh, more on that later.
[14:10] Hi everyone.
[14:14] My name's Mridula. Uh, I'm originally
[14:17] from Southern India, and I now uh, I'm
[14:20] in my undergraduate degree at the
[14:21] University of Toronto. There were quite
[14:24] a few moves in between because I'm the
[14:26] daughter of a diplomat, so
[14:27] uh, a lot of traveling, and I know my
[14:29] way around an airport.
[14:31] But I'm so glad that all of that
[14:33] traveling has brought me here.
[14:36] It feels very special to share this
[14:38] space, uh, and to share a little bit
[14:41] about my story.
[14:43] Mhm.
[14:45] So, I was initially going to talk about
[14:45] like what I'm studying, but maybe I'll
[14:47] get there. Uh,
[14:48] Nyaz's framing invited me
[14:51] to reflect on what should you all know
[14:54] about me? And
[14:56] maybe maybe a story. So, in in high
[14:58] school, around the time that I first
[15:01] discovered like contemplative practice,
[15:03] meditation, I had an English teacher.
[15:06] So, one of my favorite things that I've
[15:07] noticed, uh, from coming at
[15:09] from arriving in in Plum Village is that
[15:11] a lot of peo- a lot of people
[15:14] talk about their favorite teachers. Uh,
[15:16] there's one very famous teacher around
[15:18] here, but a lot of other teachers, and I
[15:21] I love hearing those stories. And I
[15:23] connect with a teacher that I had in
[15:26] high school who was an English teacher
[15:28] named Aaron, also from Canada. Um, I
[15:31] didn't know I didn't have any connection
[15:33] at the time, but
[15:34] he had this incredible presence, super
[15:37] funny, super wise,
[15:40] and I was just so curious to learn more
[15:42] about how he makes sense of life.
[15:45] And so I had two free periods in in high
[15:47] school, and uh, one of those free
[15:49] periods I would do some homework, and
[15:52] then the other I would just go sit in
[15:53] his office.
[15:54] And then, uh,
[15:56] I started typing up a long list of
[15:59] questions that I would ask Aaron.
[16:01] And each free period would be dedicated
[16:03] to a different question, and we just
[16:05] talk about it. So, it was a podcast that
[16:06] we never hit record on, is what I would
[16:09] phrase it as. And some of the questions
[16:10] were like deep about, so
[16:13] the topic of free will has come up
[16:14] between conversations.
[16:16] Uh, and also like, Aaron, what's
[16:17] something that bothers you even though
[16:19] it shouldn't?
[16:20] So, we we covered a lot of range, and I
[16:22] think seeing learning through that
[16:26] medium,
[16:28] uh, has had such a lasting impact on me.
[16:31] Uh, and I I think that like got the fire
[16:33] burning to like keep asking those
[16:35] questions cuz I I was so rewarding, that
[16:37] experience. And
[16:38] uh, the reason I bring up the story was
[16:40] because I asked Aaron one day, uh, the
[16:43] question, "Who's the wisest person you
[16:45] know?"
[16:47] So, this is me trying to be smart. I'm
[16:48] like, "Okay, so Aaron is one of the
[16:49] wisest people that I know. So, if I
[16:51] found out who he thinks is the wisest
[16:53] person, I'm like one chain or I'm closer
[16:56] to the end of the chain and infinite
[16:58] wisdom."
[17:00] And then Aaron goes, I'd never heard
[17:02] this name before, Thich Nhat Hanh.
[17:05] And it was the first time I heard that
[17:07] name.
[17:08] And then that
[17:11] I didn't really come back to it for a
[17:12] while. I got one of Thay's books and
[17:14] read it in between, and then I got to
[17:17] university and met Ellie.
[17:19] And long story short, I'm here.
[17:23] Uh, and I I sometimes think about the
[17:25] fact that like me, my my footprints
[17:27] might overlay a little bit of like where
[17:30] Thay might have stood, and so it is like
[17:32] a full full circle moment is how it
[17:34] feels.
[17:35] Uh, and so, yeah, I I felt inspired to
[17:37] share that because I think that's the
[17:40] same energy that I strive to bring to
[17:43] like the intellectual spaces that I'm in
[17:45] is it's me and I have a list of
[17:47] questions, maybe not written, but like
[17:48] in here. Uh, and then we chatted out,
[17:50] and I'm super curious to hear the other
[17:52] person's perspective. And in university
[17:55] that often looks like, um,
[17:57] learning more about contemplative
[17:59] science, cuz that's become my my core
[18:01] interest. So, I'm studying neuroscience
[18:03] with minors in philosophy and Buddhist
[18:05] psychology, and I'm always up for a
[18:08] conversation.
[18:21] Uh, dear Thay, dear community,
[18:24] um,
[18:25] mhm,
[18:26] very happy to be sitting with you all
[18:29] today. Um,
[18:32] I know I can feel
[18:35] my anxious mind
[18:37] with me, and I'm saying hello.
[18:39] Um, and I'm making the invisible
[18:42] visible.
[18:43] Um,
[18:47] I
[18:50] I'll start off with how maybe I ended up
[18:53] here in Plum Village. Um, and so, I met
[18:58] Ellie in my second year of my
[19:02] undergraduate degree.
[19:04] And, um,
[19:06] I had just transferred campuses, and I
[19:09] was like, "Mhm,
[19:10] Buddhism, Psychology, and Mental Health
[19:11] minor, this this seems interesting."
[19:14] And
[19:17] I landed in Ellie's Socially Engaged
[19:20] Buddhism course.
[19:21] And, um,
[19:23] this is where
[19:25] I first
[19:26] was introduced to Thay and to the Plum
[19:29] Village community, and I started
[19:32] practicing with Wake Up Toronto.
[19:35] Um,
[19:37] and
[19:40] I realized how safe I felt.
[19:44] Mhm.
[19:46] And I've
[19:47] been so lucky to take all of Ellie's
[19:49] courses, and now I am currently also
[19:53] taking a course with Ellie um as I'm
[19:55] here. So, as my final course of my
[19:58] undergraduate degree.
[20:00] Um and funny enough,
[20:04] I'm not sure how many years ago, but
[20:06] when I was
[20:07] just
[20:08] in 11th grade, um I sat on a panel of
[20:16] teens at a Sick Kids
[20:19] symposium. Um I had no idea what I was
[20:22] going to be doing.
[20:25] And um I was then in class where uh a
[20:29] class that Ellie co-teaches with Brother
[20:31] Pháp Linh um and Rob, Ellie's husband,
[20:36] says, "Lauren, I have a photo of you
[20:39] that I found
[20:40] from years ago." And I was like, "Hmm."
[20:44] Ellie goes,
[20:45] "Give give a little more."
[20:47] Um
[20:48] and
[20:49] Ellie and and Rob were there. And so,
[20:53] we've known each other um well,
[20:57] in the historic on different scales and
[20:59] then in the ultimate
[21:01] forever.
[21:03] Um and then in terms of
[21:07] I hold uh yes,
[21:09] my minor in Buddhism, psychology, and
[21:12] mental health. And then I am studying
[21:15] biodiversity and conservation biology
[21:19] um and environmental biology.
[21:22] So, I'll be finishing my undergrad and
[21:24] starting my master's in September.
[21:27] And
[21:28] well,
[21:30] I love turtles.
[21:32] Um and I love the Earth.
[21:38] Um
[21:41] and really, I'm just so grateful to be
[21:44] here with the trees, with the people um
[21:47] all just
[21:49] really feeling the interconnectedness.
[21:52] So,
[21:54] Hmm.
[21:54] Yeah.
[22:33] Thank you so much to our um panelists
[22:35] for sharing a little bit about
[22:37] themselves.
[22:38] Um I kind of find it very beautiful that
[22:41] we are sitting in the uh
[22:43] Assembly of Stars Hall and listening to
[22:46] how the stars have aligned
[22:48] through the longevity of time and how we
[22:51] all ended up here in this place in this
[22:53] time.
[22:55] And as a continuation of this morning's
[22:56] conversation, when we were talking about
[22:59] how do we integrate our spiritual
[23:01] practice with our scientific research,
[23:04] we kind of already see it manifesting
[23:06] here right now, right? We see it through
[23:08] Ellie's work and through uh this
[23:11] scientific inquiry and research of
[23:13] Ellie's students as well.
[23:16] Um
[23:17] I had a I have an advisor and I'm lucky
[23:20] to have very many wonderful teachers.
[23:23] And my advisor uh one time said to me,
[23:27] "When you step into a classroom, you
[23:30] better be able to explain why the hell
[23:32] should anyone care about the things that
[23:34] you are saying.
[23:36] You better be able to explain to 30
[23:38] students, 50 students, 72 students why
[23:41] they should spend their time sitting and
[23:43] listening to you for 4 months in the
[23:45] year."
[23:47] Right? And so,
[23:48] I think in the Buddhist monastic
[23:50] training, too, especially in the Plum
[23:52] Village tradition, you you've got to
[23:54] explain your why as well. Why do I want
[23:56] to be a nun? Why do I Why am I here? Why
[23:58] am I practicing? Why am I showing up in
[24:00] this space? And why should anyone care
[24:02] what I'm doing right now?
[24:04] And so, I am going to take that of my
[24:08] teacher
[24:10] and as as Ellie said, transfer it on to
[24:12] you all and ask you about your why.
[24:16] Right? Why Why integrate spiritual
[24:18] practice into your scientific research?
[24:20] Why do you do the things that you do?
[24:22] Why should everyone in this room care
[24:24] about the things that you do?
[24:46] Hmm. My why?
[24:48] So, uh
[24:50] This is broken up nicely. Okay, so I met
[24:52] Erin
[24:54] uh and I was also kind of stressed in
[24:55] high school. Uh
[24:57] probably took my academics a little too
[24:58] seriously and myself a little too
[25:00] seriously. And that's around the time
[25:02] that I started meditating just to like
[25:05] deal with stress.
[25:07] Uh and then the more I meditated, the
[25:09] more I realized there's so much more
[25:11] here than stress reduction, even though
[25:13] that's how it was advertised to me. I
[25:15] realized I'm learning so many cool
[25:17] things about my mind and how I relate to
[25:20] the world and the world itself. Uh and
[25:22] that there's there's art here and
[25:24] there's connection to nature. It just so
[25:26] much more vast than I ever imagined it
[25:29] would be.
[25:29] And I never left. Like I don't think I
[25:32] left that initial place of of
[25:35] fascination. So, why integrate spiritual
[25:38] practice?
[25:39] It almost like
[25:41] the feeling of connection and feeling of
[25:44] uh of satisfaction of having found this
[25:47] wonderful thing,
[25:48] it almost
[25:50] escapes reason. Like I don't feel a need
[25:52] to justify it anymore cuz I feel it so
[25:54] palpably that like this is the thing to
[25:55] do for me
[25:57] uh as opposed to other decisions where I
[25:59] might approach it with rational
[26:00] reasoning of pros and cons and and why
[26:02] dedicate attention towards this. This
[26:04] just seems so important to me of like if
[26:06] I'm leading a more wholesome life and
[26:10] I'm constantly engaged and find things
[26:13] to be curious about, I I find no reason
[26:16] not to dedicate my time towards studying
[26:19] contemplative practice. This is is
[26:21] personally how I feel.
[26:31] Hmm.
[26:32] Um for my why,
[26:38] so I am studying, yes, biodiversity,
[26:44] conservation, and specifically
[26:47] uh herpetology. And herpetology is the
[26:50] study of reptiles and amphibians.
[26:53] Um
[26:56] I
[26:58] wasn't sure when I went into university
[27:00] where I would really end up. Um even as
[27:04] a child, it wasn't like, "Yeah, turtles,
[27:07] snakes, lizards." And people ask me
[27:09] that. They go,
[27:11] "Were you obsessed with turtles when you
[27:13] were a kid?" Like,
[27:14] Hmm.
[27:16] They were
[27:17] scattered here and there. Um
[27:20] turtle earrings, you know, the little
[27:22] figures. But I wasn't like, "Yes."
[27:25] And then
[27:26] I started learning more about
[27:30] how wonderful and
[27:34] weird our planet is and the diversity
[27:39] and
[27:41] really that interbeing in every
[27:44] ecosystem
[27:46] and
[27:47] what even is an ecosystem is a good
[27:49] question.
[27:50] Um
[27:52] So, for the why,
[27:55] um
[27:56] that curiosity and that connection of
[28:01] I am the Earth
[28:03] and the Earth is me. Um
[28:09] And following that just innate feeling
[28:12] and leading with my heart
[28:15] uh is what has led me on this path.
[28:18] Um
[28:19] and
[28:21] I
[28:22] can bring in my practice
[28:25] um
[28:26] to my work and it may not be
[28:31] in
[28:32] a very obvious sense, perhaps, as
[28:36] um in other fields.
[28:38] And also when I'm
[28:41] walking
[28:42] and listening and bringing the qualities
[28:46] that
[28:48] have been cultivated through practicing
[28:51] with the sangha and
[28:53] seeing
[28:55] all beings in the Earth as an extension.
[28:59] Like the Earth
[29:01] is we're one big sangha, I think.
[29:04] Um
[29:06] And
[29:07] yeah, just how can I show up with my
[29:10] full being?
[29:12] Um
[29:14] and
[29:16] listen and lead with my heart. And this
[29:19] is this is why.
[29:21] Hmm.
[29:30] Hmm. I'm inspired to share my why, but
[29:32] might I be allowed to ask a follow-up
[29:34] question? Just while we're I'll I'll
[29:36] share my why when one of you remind me
[29:37] I'm supposed to do that, but I was just
[29:39] curious, you know, from from hearing
[29:41] both of you right now and some of our
[29:43] conversations that we've had, I was just
[29:45] curious for both of you as you you kind
[29:47] of bring forward these aspirations.
[29:50] Um, do you find others like in your
[29:52] fields are others bringing that approach
[29:55] when you're out in the field with them
[29:57] doing field work?
[30:03] Thank you, Ellie. This is a good
[30:05] question.
[30:06] Um,
[30:08] yes and no.
[30:12] There's a lot of um,
[30:15] I think oh,
[30:17] there are some people who yes, their
[30:18] connection to the earth like that is
[30:20] very present.
[30:22] And also it's well, we need to get this
[30:25] done.
[30:27] This is for the research. This is for
[30:30] there's there's a little bit of a
[30:33] lack of enjoyment and um,
[30:37] I
[30:39] finding the wonder of it all
[30:42] in what
[30:44] we do. Um,
[30:46] and also the
[30:48] the aspiration that people bring or
[30:51] convey. Um,
[30:55] I think that
[30:58] is also that has yeah, a different
[31:01] flavor to it.
[31:03] Um,
[31:06] and I remember my first time doing field
[31:08] work. I
[31:10] we all lived in a house together. So
[31:13] there were
[31:13] five of us in a room and um, it was
[31:17] funny yesterday when I was like, oh, do
[31:19] does anyone live with their co-workers
[31:21] like monastics?
[31:23] And I was like, well, I do.
[31:25] Um, and
[31:28] the one morning I said, does anyone want
[31:30] to join me in
[31:32] a tea meditation?
[31:34] And we sat around the table and
[31:39] then we would kind of do that throughout
[31:41] and
[31:43] bringing in how can we touch
[31:46] moments of
[31:48] reflection and and calm
[31:51] and
[31:52] connection.
[31:54] Um,
[31:56] that
[31:58] and how that has maybe you can see it
[32:00] come in throughout the day.
[32:03] Um,
[32:04] where people notice
[32:05] there there's a different awareness.
[32:07] Um,
[32:09] yeah, I can I can see the differences.
[32:12] Yeah.
[32:16] Maybe I'll jump in and then do if you
[32:18] want to add something first, I'll
[32:20] Sure, I can make it quick. Like I the
[32:21] part of the reason I think I chose
[32:22] contemplative science as my interest is
[32:24] that I'd get to hang out with
[32:25] contemplatives who are really smart and
[32:28] awesome to hang out with and they I
[32:29] learned so much from them and they they
[32:32] challenge me to think differently so
[32:34] regularly yet in a gentle way and I
[32:36] think that's a rare quality that it's
[32:38] like it has a gravitational pull for me
[32:39] that I keep like searching for. Yeah.
[32:44] Yeah, thank you and like the why I was I
[32:46] was kind of reminded this this question
[32:48] of um, maybe I can do a little bit of a
[32:51] fat plan game which was just to remind
[32:53] me
[32:53] who in this room maybe you can raise
[32:55] your hands if if some part of your
[32:56] current work identity includes doing
[32:59] research.
[33:02] Okay, and then my next question is um,
[33:04] who here would say when they're doing
[33:06] research they're consistently touching
[33:09] joy?
[33:13] Yeah, like okay. So
[33:15] just just from sitting up here just like
[33:16] a quick a quick
[33:18] survey here. We had a lot of hands doing
[33:20] research and a lot less hands touching
[33:22] joy.
[33:23] Um,
[33:25] and
[33:26] you know, this is also a curiosity for
[33:27] me. I'm I'm glad you brought that up.
[33:29] Why do I do what I do? Um, and I love
[33:32] you know, Mark Mark is an also colleague
[33:34] of mine at the University of Toronto. We
[33:36] love to cook some things up together.
[33:38] You know, when I think about it, you
[33:40] know, there's some wise on paper maybe
[33:42] to share like when I first started doing
[33:44] my PhD as a young researcher. I grew up
[33:48] in this tradition and so for me, you
[33:51] know, Thich Nhat Hanh for short Thich
[33:53] Nhat Hanh we call him teacher.
[33:55] Plum Village was just like in my bones
[33:58] and I remember starting to read some of
[33:59] the academic peer-reviewed research
[34:02] articles in the field of mindfulness and
[34:05] contemplative science and I started
[34:07] noticing that there was often
[34:11] lots of citations for the psychologists
[34:13] or
[34:14] you know, more maybe contemporary
[34:15] Western often white men
[34:19] in the articles and almost never a
[34:21] citation for any contemplative
[34:24] traditions.
[34:25] I would sometimes read a paper and think
[34:27] like, oh, it said they were doing a meta
[34:29] meditation. Which one? And that was it.
[34:32] I was like, how am I supposed to know as
[34:34] a scientist what was tested if it's not
[34:38] cited. That's like as an academic
[34:40] institution like we have an ethical code
[34:43] of conduct to cite our sources
[34:46] and there was all these sources I
[34:47] couldn't find citations for. I went to a
[34:50] conference once and I heard someone
[34:52] presenting on their research in the
[34:54] field and they were they said they were
[34:55] going to lead a practice and they led in
[34:57] out deep slow calm ease smile release
[35:00] which some of you will know this is like
[35:03] a classic Plum Village practice. So I
[35:06] went up to them after, you know, I was
[35:07] in my early 20s, my tail was wagging. I
[35:09] was like, I'm going to meet a Thich Nhat
[35:11] Hanh Plum Villager who's a researcher. I
[35:13] went up and I said, ah, that meditation
[35:17] from Thich Nhat Hanh. Who? From Thich
[35:19] Nhat Hanh. Who?
[35:21] I said the the keyword guided practice
[35:24] you just did. Oh, no, no, that was Dr.
[35:26] So-and-so. That's where I got it from.
[35:27] Didn't want to engage.
[35:30] And so I I tell this story cuz it was it
[35:32] was kind of heartbreaking and actually
[35:33] like a little delusioning as a young
[35:36] researcher in this field at that time to
[35:38] go
[35:40] why aren't we citing our sources?
[35:42] Why aren't we honoring this? What does
[35:44] that mean? And coming to understand more
[35:46] as I have what skillful means in terms
[35:49] of you know, this is a whole other talk
[35:51] but what has and hasn't been included?
[35:54] How have we transferred things to
[35:56] mindfulness-based interventions? And
[35:58] like so many thanks and you know, earth
[36:02] touching to to the scientists who have
[36:05] brought this into fields, who thought
[36:07] about these pieces. Like there's so much
[36:09] richness in the scholarship that has
[36:12] come before us. So I like just a deep of
[36:15] gratitude, you know, to the coining of
[36:18] the term MBI like it lets us bring
[36:20] things into spaces.
[36:21] And I started as a as a qualitative
[36:24] researcher.
[36:25] We have this concept about concepts
[36:28] which is we would say a concept or a
[36:30] phenomena. So let's say
[36:33] the practice of mindfulness.
[36:36] We say a concept is flawed if it's
[36:38] missing cases.
[36:41] And so what this would say is say in our
[36:42] field we have like a lot of research
[36:44] around MBSR mindfulness-based stress
[36:46] reduction and that's one case in this
[36:50] concept that we have. And so we can love
[36:54] that case and get tons of richness and
[36:55] depth from it and what other cases are
[36:58] we missing to have a full illustration
[37:01] of what's possible.
[37:03] And so this is part of my rationale as
[37:06] you know, we like to fill a gap in order
[37:08] to get funding
[37:09] and so part of my rationale going into
[37:12] my PhD was this proposal. And I love I
[37:16] also want to say I love the language of
[37:19] adding a case to a concept cuz as a
[37:22] scientist I also
[37:24] I'm really curious as like a human
[37:26] being, you know, I've taken the the 14
[37:28] mindfulness trainings. I'm now I just
[37:30] became a baby Dharma teacher in this
[37:31] tradition.
[37:33] And
[37:35] we are invited in our practice to be
[37:38] aware of our thoughts, our speech and
[37:40] our action.
[37:42] That these are imprints we leave on the
[37:44] earth and in the world.
[37:46] And I think about this as a scientist
[37:49] when I make a rationale or an argument
[37:51] or I publish a paper.
[37:54] Like what are my thoughts and my speech
[37:56] and actions that I am putting into this
[37:58] world? And so often in science I also
[38:01] found there's some violence in the way
[38:03] we publish our work because the kind of
[38:05] like skit I like to do about a
[38:07] peer-reviewed journal it starts being
[38:08] like here's what came before me. So like
[38:10] I should add to it but like here's why
[38:12] it's not good enough the gap I'm going
[38:14] to fill.
[38:15] And I go faster when I do my skit. Sorry
[38:18] for for language. I'll go fast for a
[38:19] moment just for the skit and then I'll
[38:21] slow down. Um,
[38:23] so so we make this argument, right? It's
[38:26] like our lit review is like
[38:28] here's what came before. So I'm
[38:29] justified. But like here's what's
[38:31] missing. So I shall fill it and be
[38:34] better.
[38:35] And then like, oh, but you know, I don't
[38:37] know everything so don't worry.
[38:41] What I'm curious about is this language
[38:43] of
[38:45] sometimes needing to tear down or
[38:47] dismiss or say like here's why I'm
[38:49] better to get my funding. Right? And so
[38:53] I just wanted to bring light to this
[38:56] this concept adding a case to a concept
[38:59] to me is also this question of like as a
[39:02] scientist can I be curious and explore
[39:05] and be adding rather than detracting,
[39:09] rather than putting down other research.
[39:12] You know, I'll just say explicitly
[39:13] sometimes when I'm when I share that I'm
[39:15] studying Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings,
[39:17] someone will say, oh, well, then what do
[39:18] you think of MBSR?
[39:19] You know.
[39:20] And what do you think of the other
[39:22] things that are in your field with this
[39:23] idea
[39:25] that I'm going to make them my enemy,
[39:27] that I'm going to position myself as
[39:29] smarter or better.
[39:31] So I'm just interested again that our
[39:33] practice is making the invisible
[39:34] visible. So I also think something
[39:37] that's beautiful about what we're doing
[39:39] here and I think this question of of why
[39:42] like why do I do the work I do, the
[39:44] research, the classes. I'm just
[39:47] reflecting on this in this moment. This
[39:50] is a slightly new idea for me.
[39:53] I think part of it also is this deep
[39:55] intention from tying this community to
[39:59] like cultivate a peaceful loving world.
[40:03] Like at the very heart.
[40:06] And you know, each one of us has a
[40:07] different language or way we might do
[40:09] this in the world. Uh so there's a bunch
[40:11] of us here who have this label of
[40:13] scientists. Uh we might propose the
[40:15] Buddha was an original scientist, had a
[40:17] great research question about suffering
[40:19] and happiness. So maybe all of us here
[40:21] are researchers in a way, but for me I
[40:24] think ever since I was a little kid,
[40:26] like I love to tell stories and I love
[40:29] to like
[40:30] figure out what was under the hood of
[40:32] something and bring that together. So
[40:34] this language of science really makes
[40:36] sense to me. Um so yeah, when I think
[40:39] about the work I do, this intention to
[40:42] bring tie into the literature, to add a
[40:44] case to the concept, to do it in this
[40:46] like loving and open way,
[40:48] um I think that is maybe my why is what
[40:52] does it mean to create like a peaceful
[40:54] and loving world? Um and for me in this
[40:57] tradition, there's so there's so much of
[41:00] that thought technology that is here. Um
[41:04] and growing up in the children's and
[41:05] teens program, I can remember Thich Nhat
[41:07] Hanh, he used to give a talk to like the
[41:09] teens or kids and then let us go play.
[41:11] Uh well, the song it kept sitting
[41:12] through the Dharma talk.
[41:14] And um I remember him just like looking
[41:17] at us sometimes being like this is
[41:19] entrusted to you. And this real
[41:22] permission uh that this tradition has as
[41:25] like a living breathing tradition to
[41:28] keep cooking up the Dharma to borrow a
[41:30] phrase from brother Phap Linh uh
[41:34] that we're invited to keep translating
[41:37] it into the language of our times. And
[41:39] so I hope maybe this why is like all of
[41:42] us here to inspire each other uh to do
[41:45] that work. And like these two, as I'm
[41:46] sitting between them, you know, I can I
[41:49] can feel that cooking that we're all
[41:50] doing.
[41:55] Thank you so much uh again to the
[41:57] panelists. Um I uh I I think this is uh
[42:02] my sort of shout-out to the senior
[42:04] scientists in the room. As you're
[42:06] listening to these young scientists talk
[42:08] about their joy Yamdula's joy in just
[42:11] doing the thing that she wants to do cuz
[42:13] it brings her joy. And then uh listening
[42:16] to Lauren think about the way that she
[42:18] does the things she does cuz she's
[42:19] feeling connected and she's curious
[42:21] about the world. And and Ellie's mission
[42:23] of doing the things that she does
[42:25] because
[42:26] because she believes that this world
[42:28] could be better. She believes that
[42:29] there's love is possible and love can
[42:31] permeate in this world and therefore she
[42:33] does the things that she does. And so
[42:35] this is an invitation in fact to the
[42:36] senior scientist in the room who didn't
[42:38] raise their hand when they asked when
[42:40] the question was asked, do you feel joy
[42:42] when you do your research? To think
[42:45] about your why again. And then think
[42:47] about
[42:48] for posterity, you know, when you when
[42:50] you have young scientists come into
[42:52] under your under your wings how can you
[42:55] protect that joy? How you can you can
[42:58] you protect that vision that they have,
[43:01] what we call in Buddhism the beginner's
[43:02] mind, right? When you step into the lab
[43:05] with that with that aspiration of I
[43:08] actually want to do something
[43:10] to help humanity.
[43:13] Um one of the things that Ellie said
[43:16] about the wonder of it all and everyone
[43:18] here being a scientist reminds me of
[43:21] you know, it it it made me think of you
[43:24] know, when we're here and the theme of
[43:26] our retreat is the wonder of it all. And
[43:29] my assumption when I say, oh the wonder
[43:31] of it all is that we are thinking about
[43:34] the world and the world as a wonder that
[43:36] we are marveling at, that we are
[43:38] observing.
[43:40] But then I also think it's a joke, it's
[43:42] a trick cuz these monks and nuns, they
[43:44] never they're never that simple, right?
[43:46] The wonder of it all is actually
[43:47] ourselves. Like we are ourselves a
[43:50] wonder of this world and and worthy to
[43:53] be marveled at and worthy to be curious
[43:55] of and worthy of love and worthy of joy
[43:58] and worthy of all the things that our
[44:00] young panelists here have talked about.
[44:02] We ourselves are worthy of the same care
[44:05] and attention that we give to our
[44:06] research as well.
[44:08] And in Madhyamaka philosophy they there
[44:12] is a line that says often times we we
[44:14] think that we are observing the world,
[44:17] but in fact we are of the world. This is
[44:20] goes back to Mark's point this morning.
[44:22] We're creating it all the time. We're
[44:24] not just this passive observer, but we
[44:27] are creating it all the time. And so
[44:29] when we think about this when I'm
[44:31] thinking about this philosophy, I'm
[44:34] always thinking about whether I'm
[44:35] teaching a class at the business school,
[44:37] at the law school, at the Ed school or
[44:39] at the divinity school, I'm always
[44:40] thinking about what are my ethical
[44:43] obligations?
[44:45] And so as a young scientist and as you
[44:48] are imagining a future, as you are
[44:51] imagine sharpening, I'm obsessed right
[44:53] now with a moral imagination
[44:56] what are your ethical obligations as
[44:58] you're thinking about the field and
[44:59] thinking about the things that you'd
[45:01] like to contribute?
[45:20] When I think about what I would like to
[45:23] contribute, um
[45:28] I
[45:31] when I'm in the field, um
[45:35] I know that I I have this aspiration to
[45:38] bring my full being
[45:42] and to be fully present,
[45:45] um
[45:47] and in that I and I think in all
[45:50] research and just in living life, we are
[45:55] we can
[45:57] do and have a kind of deep listening and
[46:01] it may not be what we're
[46:03] listening to a human speak, but for me,
[46:07] um
[46:09] deeply listening
[46:11] to not not just sounds, but
[46:16] we can listen to ourselves, um
[46:20] what are we taking in? Um and then how
[46:25] is that
[46:26] coming out? How are we showing up? Um
[46:32] and
[46:34] really recognizing how much I honor and
[46:37] appreciate
[46:39] the relationship I have when I get to
[46:42] learn
[46:43] from the earth, um
[46:48] and how can I embrace
[46:52] suffering and joy?
[46:57] And
[46:59] um
[47:03] I was having a hard time because I'm
[47:06] missing turtle nesting season back in
[47:10] um
[47:10] Ontario.
[47:12] And I was feeling guilty.
[47:15] And someone here said to me, well Lauren
[47:19] think about that feeling
[47:22] and hold on to it because it means that
[47:25] we're
[47:26] I'm where I'm meant to be.
[47:28] Um
[47:29] and if I didn't love what I was doing
[47:32] that wouldn't come up.
[47:36] And
[47:37] and imagining a future where oh, well,
[47:41] actually now you said this in Ellie's
[47:44] guest in one of Ellie's courses as a
[47:46] guest lecturer. Uh how can I breathe
[47:51] life into the insight of interbeing?
[47:56] Whether that be with humans, more than
[47:59] humans, um
[48:02] the soil, the water
[48:06] recognizing
[48:08] and feeling interbeing
[48:11] how can I
[48:13] how am I creating a world
[48:15] where we can all deeply listen to one
[48:18] another
[48:20] and witness and embrace our suffering
[48:24] and our joy to
[48:26] find where do we want to be?
[48:30] And listening to leading with the heart
[48:34] can can we um
[48:37] create a more joyful place
[48:41] where um
[48:45] maybe
[48:47] um
[48:50] just thinking about
[48:53] if there was the little bit if we had
[48:56] that that joy, that spark
[48:59] would our world be a different place?
[49:01] Because if we're not doing what we love
[49:04] and not seeing what is it that we love?
[49:08] Why why?
[49:12] Then we can maybe get a little bit lost,
[49:14] um
[49:16] so yeah.
[49:25] I was inspired to jump in and I also I'm
[49:28] I'm taking in this moment both of like,
[49:30] oh what will I say and then not over
[49:32] planning it and then also just wanting
[49:34] to do this.
[49:39] Um
[49:41] I think for me as I yeah, imagine as you
[49:44] had you've been saying like to like
[49:46] imagine the like the moral Give me that
[49:48] sentence again.
[49:50] Your your moral imagination.
[49:52] Delicious. It's delicious.
[49:55] Um
[49:57] you know, I what came up for me also is
[49:59] I was saying I'm a I'm a baby Dharma
[50:01] teacher here and then I'm a a baby
[50:03] professor over there.
[50:05] Um
[50:06] And I can say I'm already starting to
[50:08] feel some of that burnout and
[50:10] disillusionment
[50:12] after finishing uh my PhD, getting to
[50:14] start teaching
[50:16] and already having so much of my time
[50:20] go into the bureaucracy and the meetings
[50:23] instead of just doing what I love.
[50:26] Um and it's maybe a question I have for
[50:28] all of us. Like
[50:30] what what is in these spaces? What are
[50:32] the pushers and the pullers? Sometimes
[50:34] when I come back to Plum Village it
[50:35] feels like I'm like
[50:57] As we take a moment to breathe with the
[50:59] sound of that plane, I'm reminded of a
[51:02] talk of Thich Nhat Hanh in Tampa,
[51:04] Florida, I think.
[51:06] On Buddhist psychology where you can see
[51:07] him breathing each time a helicopter
[51:10] flies. And he also shares that it's not
[51:13] just uh the practice of breathing as in
[51:17] ah bell, he was actually holding in that
[51:19] moment the uh
[51:21] the feeling of the memories of war that
[51:23] brought with that. And so I just wanted
[51:25] to maybe just invite a sound of the bell
[51:27] in this moment just to be here for
[51:29] ourselves, for our ancestors and
[51:32] those places in the world right now that
[51:34] are hearing that sound and not feeling
[51:37] safe as I still feel in this moment.
[52:27] It's interesting to have a microphone
[52:29] and I just invite in I was sharing the
[52:31] other day one of our one of our
[52:33] bodhisattvas says I vow to listen so
[52:35] deeply that I hear what is said and left
[52:37] unsaid.
[52:39] And there's so much in this moment and I
[52:41] I look to some of my colleagues and
[52:42] friends who I know
[52:44] have family in different parts of this
[52:45] world and just want to hold that.
[52:49] And I'm going to continue this panel and
[52:52] I want to share part of what I see in
[52:54] that to thank Brother Faplin who's
[52:56] sitting just over there also. It's it's
[52:58] so beautiful to present in a space where
[53:00] you can look out and feel beside you all
[53:03] of your your sangha of of love and care.
[53:07] Um who gave a talk at the at the June
[53:10] Ojai retreat last year inviting us to
[53:12] consider
[53:14] what action is that sometimes we can sit
[53:16] in a room
[53:18] cultivating peace in ourselves to have
[53:20] this beautiful privilege to walk on this
[53:24] peaceful earth here.
[53:26] And sometimes we put this into the
[53:27] bucket of rest and self-care
[53:30] which it is. It's beautiful to be here.
[53:33] And can we see sitting in peace as a
[53:36] real action?
[53:38] As a real act as this world pushes us to
[53:41] feel maybe anger, hate and fear
[53:44] that it is also a real action
[53:47] to cultivate something else.
[53:49] To be in peace together and
[53:52] I think this kind of loops back into
[53:54] what I wanted to continue here about
[53:57] yeah, how do we bring joy back into our
[53:59] work?
[54:01] And this this peace that I can already
[54:03] feel from the institution I'm in of some
[54:05] harm that it's causing me.
[54:08] Some harm that I see it causing my
[54:10] students.
[54:12] I have um
[54:14] Oh, can I
[54:15] disclose slightly some known to
[54:17] uh
[54:18] I have this being sitting next to me
[54:22] who I have watched and you can hear some
[54:24] of the love and care and curiosity going
[54:28] into your work.
[54:30] And watching this year a
[54:32] relationship to a supervisor and uh
[54:35] and some of the damage that caused.
[54:38] And it hurt me, too.
[54:41] Hm.
[54:42] We had tears together about it.
[54:46] And I I bring this up. I can actually
[54:48] feel emotion in me watching myself and
[54:51] others who want to come into these
[54:53] spaces and I I invite all of you. Maybe
[54:55] you've had this experience in your past.
[54:58] Or we ask this question, what are your
[54:59] spheres of influence?
[55:01] Who might you be a supervisor for in an
[55:03] academic space?
[55:05] In the monastic community, maybe you
[55:07] have young ones and maybe one day you
[55:09] will mentor.
[55:11] And this this position of power we have
[55:15] that has this opportunity
[55:18] to cause some real harm and this
[55:21] opportunity
[55:23] to like build loving communities. Like
[55:27] to build loving, inclusive communities.
[55:29] It's part of the the phrase for Wake Up.
[55:32] The aspiration that Thich Nhat Hanh gave
[55:35] to Wake Up as young adults community to
[55:37] aspire to build loving, inclusive,
[55:40] sustainable communities. It's in a song
[55:42] by Joe Riley that we like to rap.
[55:46] And I think for me as a young professor,
[55:48] one of the things that I am orienting
[55:51] myself towards all the time, I think one
[55:53] of the greatest gifts, the thing that
[55:54] like keeps me sustained
[55:57] has been this opportunity in every class
[55:59] I teach, every supervision, anyone that
[56:01] I'm doing research with
[56:03] I have a sphere of influence there.
[56:06] I get to cook up
[56:08] what an assignment is, what a grade is,
[56:11] how an exam is written.
[56:14] For my exams, I I think you were both in
[56:16] this class so you can share your
[56:17] experiences with it. For an exam at the
[56:19] end of a fourth-year research
[56:20] methodologies course on mindfulness that
[56:23] I teach where we get to like dive into
[56:24] the peer-reviewed journals and just
[56:26] really nerd out on science and Dharma.
[56:30] For the final exam, a few things. The
[56:32] first thing is I really encourage my
[56:34] students to know
[56:37] that we each have a job here. Like if I
[56:38] did my job well
[56:40] you shouldn't and you showed up and
[56:42] engaged in everything I invited you to
[56:44] engage with, you shouldn't have to
[56:46] study.
[56:47] That the exam is your opportunity to
[56:49] demonstrate what you learned. And if we
[56:52] both showed up for our part of this
[56:55] learning adventure
[56:57] then you're ready.
[56:59] Can you trust yourself? Can you
[57:01] essentially trust your store because I
[57:02] think you can.
[57:04] And then at that final exam, I bring
[57:07] juice boxes and cookies and we come into
[57:10] the room. It's a 3-hour class and the
[57:13] exam only takes 2 hours. So we take the
[57:14] first half an hour
[57:17] to do a meditative practice.
[57:20] And
[57:22] at the first year I said to calm your
[57:24] nervous system and I actually got some
[57:25] feedback from students that like that
[57:27] was not helpful.
[57:30] And they're right cuz we know from like
[57:32] a neurophysiological
[57:33] perspective actually right before an
[57:35] exam, it's healthy for your nervous
[57:36] system to be kicking up. It's getting
[57:37] you ready to go. I have my two
[57:39] colleagues, Mark and Alex are cog
[57:41] scientists. They're like, yeah, like
[57:43] uh so we adapted
[57:47] it with feedback. This co-creation thing
[57:50] that
[57:50] to just caring for our nervous system.
[57:53] To welcome in, you know, the chemicals
[57:56] that are getting us ready for an exam
[57:58] cuz we want them.
[58:00] And we don't want them to overwhelm us.
[58:03] We don't want the exam to be a paper
[58:05] tiger that makes us, you know
[58:07] So we have this fun moment where we talk
[58:10] we make the invisible visible.
[58:13] I invite all the students in the room to
[58:14] raise their hand if they're anxious
[58:15] during exam season so we can just see
[58:17] it. We're not alone.
[58:20] Oh, hi.
[58:22] Everyone's nervous during exam season.
[58:24] Um
[58:26] and so
[58:27] again just kind of I wanted to just
[58:29] illustrate with a story. Oh, and I will
[58:31] say the last part of this is in this
[58:33] exam
[58:34] so the exam is written. The invitation
[58:36] is like choose your own adventure with a
[58:38] juice box and cookies. You know, maybe
[58:40] you're someone that's like I need my
[58:42] juice box cookie before the exam even
[58:44] starts.
[58:45] Maybe you're someone that's like partway
[58:47] through my exam, I'm going to quietly
[58:49] walk up and get a juice and cookie. Or
[58:51] maybe it's like your reward at the end.
[58:53] So everyone gets to choose. And it is
[58:54] the most joy I say when you see someone
[58:57] walking up, you're writing your exam,
[58:59] you see some movement and they're going
[59:00] to get their juice and cookie. Like feel
[59:02] the mudita. Feel the joy.
[59:05] And so we have these bells of
[59:06] mindfulness through the exam cuz someone
[59:08] goes to walk up and everyone looks up
[59:10] and smiles a little and then there's a
[59:11] little laughter.
[59:13] And I can tell you even in my class
[59:15] where I hope there's an intention for
[59:18] like safety when everyone walks in for
[59:20] that exam, the energy in the room is
[59:22] like
[59:24] And then we do the practice.
[59:26] And then we have laughter and like the
[59:28] whole the collective consciousness, it
[59:31] changes.
[59:35] And then the exam ends and and what was
[59:37] so sweet, every year, no one leaves.
[59:39] Like you're allowed to leave when the
[59:40] exam is done.
[59:42] Everyone just stays. I have other
[59:43] teachers like, "I can't get students to
[59:45] show up to class. I can't get anyone to
[59:46] talk." I'm like, "I can't make the
[59:48] students leave."
[59:51] Everyone just wants to stay cuz like
[59:54] this classroom that I didn't classroom
[59:56] during an exam
[59:58] feels like the best place to be.
[1:00:02] And so I I wanted to share this story as
[1:00:04] and this is just like one illustration
[1:00:06] of like the things I'm thinking about
[1:00:08] during the technology I take from Plum
[1:00:10] Village on like what is community and
[1:00:14] Sangha building.
[1:00:15] And I infuse it into like every step I
[1:00:18] can for everything I do in my classes.
[1:00:21] Um
[1:00:22] and and I say this because like this is
[1:00:25] what I wish
[1:00:27] for our academic learning spaces. I I
[1:00:31] it's like my deepest wish
[1:00:33] um is to give ourselves permission to be
[1:00:35] human
[1:00:37] and to like show up with our hearts
[1:00:39] because when I offer that
[1:00:42] someone was like teaching is like the
[1:00:43] most tiring part of the week and
[1:00:45] honestly the the 3-hour lectures I give
[1:00:47] every week are the things that like make
[1:00:50] my heart sing.
[1:00:52] Um cuz I get cuz I like I get to just be
[1:00:54] with Sangha.
[1:00:56] That's what we create in the classroom.
[1:00:57] That's what we create in my research
[1:00:59] labs.
[1:01:01] Um
[1:01:02] and maybe the last little story I'll
[1:01:04] tell there is just I I was sharing this
[1:01:07] the other day like before I go to say
[1:01:08] mark a paper
[1:01:11] I have a a vow and a commitment to
[1:01:12] myself to not grade papers if I'm in a
[1:01:15] bad mood.
[1:01:18] Because it it changes how I grade. It
[1:01:20] changes the comments I give.
[1:01:23] Right? And for me too, like that it's
[1:01:25] not just like what I'm giving to someone
[1:01:27] else. Like that impacts my own inner
[1:01:29] landscape. And then you can just imagine
[1:01:32] how this translates. I hope. I hope I'm
[1:01:34] giving particular qualitative research
[1:01:36] particular examples from my field or the
[1:01:39] practices and research I do that you can
[1:01:42] translate and transfer into your spaces.
[1:01:44] Where are you a supervisor?
[1:01:46] Where do you have a sphere of influence?
[1:01:48] Where do you give comments? If you're a
[1:01:50] business person and someone like gives
[1:01:51] you a memo that's going out to the
[1:01:52] company, do you only tell them what's
[1:01:54] wrong with it?
[1:01:56] And how does that impact you and that
[1:01:58] other person? Cuz if you only tell the
[1:02:01] people at work
[1:02:02] what's wrong
[1:02:04] how does that impact your neuro pathways
[1:02:06] for how you interact with your family?
[1:02:09] So these are some things I'm curious
[1:02:11] about and my yeah, my deepest hope for
[1:02:13] our institutions
[1:02:16] is to start seeing making the invisible
[1:02:18] visible. Where do we have competition
[1:02:22] and striving and do better and succeed?
[1:02:24] How are we talking about that?
[1:02:27] How are we being vulnerable as
[1:02:29] supervisors, as teachers so that our
[1:02:31] students feel safe?
[1:02:34] And maybe how can our workplaces
[1:02:37] be allowed to be our Sanghas?
[1:02:50] So this question about moral
[1:02:52] imaginations and how I'd like ethics to
[1:02:56] inform my work.
[1:02:57] Uh
[1:02:58] a phrase that Ellie mentioned
[1:03:00] hopefully every step of the way.
[1:03:02] Hopefully that's not a question that I
[1:03:03] ask right at the end of a project. Like
[1:03:05] every step of the way I'm encouraged to
[1:03:07] ask how is this contributing towards
[1:03:11] building uh
[1:03:13] more wholesome
[1:03:16] and then now we've opened uh uh
[1:03:18] Lauren's work as well like an ecology of
[1:03:21] wellness.
[1:03:22] Uh so at the individual level, at the
[1:03:24] community level, and at the society
[1:03:26] societal level, and the the
[1:03:28] environmental input as well. It's like
[1:03:30] the field of of wellness. Uh
[1:03:33] and I I also inspired to take the
[1:03:36] question in a in another direction of
[1:03:38] something that's been a big learning for
[1:03:39] me this week is to reconnect with the
[1:03:43] embodied feelings. Uh and so maybe we
[1:03:47] tap into the wisdom in the room here and
[1:03:50] I invite you all to think back to a
[1:03:53] memory of being in a space where you
[1:03:56] felt creative and that it was generative
[1:03:59] and that you were excited uh with people
[1:04:01] around you or maybe it was by yourself
[1:04:04] uh where you felt safe to think about
[1:04:05] ideas with no attachment to like is it
[1:04:07] going to happen or not but like you're
[1:04:09] just in this phase of uh this rush of
[1:04:12] creative imaginative energy uh and
[1:04:16] yeah, can you invite some of those
[1:04:19] embodied feelings back?
[1:04:21] Like really enjoying imagination. Might
[1:04:24] might have been in childhood when you
[1:04:26] were read to, could have been more
[1:04:27] recently. Uh
[1:04:36] I'm thinking back to conversations with
[1:04:38] Erin.
[1:04:42] That That's exactly what I want. Is is I
[1:04:45] want us
[1:04:46] to be able to be in that state while we
[1:04:50] address
[1:04:51] the issues that confront our society
[1:04:54] and that we can do it in a way that's
[1:04:56] sustainable for ourselves, for
[1:04:59] everything around us.
[1:05:02] And so yeah, I think that's where
[1:05:47] Um
[1:05:49] one of uh
[1:05:51] I read a social science paper that said
[1:05:53] one of the um
[1:05:55] markers of uh
[1:05:57] us knowing that we're in some dire times
[1:05:59] is that we start paying attention to
[1:06:01] artists.
[1:06:02] And um I know y'all didn't mention this.
[1:06:05] You didn't say it but when I was
[1:06:07] listening to you all reflect on your um
[1:06:10] ethical and moral obligations as you
[1:06:12] think about the work that you're doing
[1:06:15] and aspiring to do
[1:06:17] I just heard an artist speak. Right? Um
[1:06:21] from making the visible invisible
[1:06:23] visible
[1:06:24] from um working from a place of
[1:06:27] non-dissociation,
[1:06:29] fully present while addressing the
[1:06:30] problems in this world. And then also to
[1:06:34] this your words now, homie, breathing
[1:06:36] life into interbeing.
[1:06:39] Right? Breathing life into um you know,
[1:06:42] what could be considered a very ethereal
[1:06:45] concept of interbeing but making it
[1:06:48] really pragmatic in this moment, in this
[1:06:50] time.
[1:06:51] And this is a something that Ty talks
[1:06:53] about that each of us have uh an artist,
[1:06:57] a warrior
[1:06:58] and a uh a meditator in in all of us.
[1:07:03] And you know, one of the things that
[1:07:04] Ellie, when you were talking about as a
[1:07:08] as a professor thinking about how do I
[1:07:10] design this course? How do I design a
[1:07:12] classroom? How to design each moment in
[1:07:14] the classroom in such a way where there
[1:07:17] is safety, there's learning, there's
[1:07:20] challenge. All of those things can exist
[1:07:22] in perfect harmony and people feel fully
[1:07:24] seen and fully heard. Um it makes me
[1:07:27] think of you know, often times in the
[1:07:29] sutras when they talk about the Dharma,
[1:07:31] right? The Dharma is good in the
[1:07:33] beginning, it's good in the middle, and
[1:07:35] it's good in the end, right? And we
[1:07:38] think about ourselves and the work that
[1:07:39] we do. How do we make it good in the
[1:07:40] beginning, good in the middle, and good
[1:07:43] in the end, right?
[1:07:44] Um I actually want to check in with our
[1:07:46] sister to see where we are on time.
[1:07:50] Three two minutes.
[1:07:52] 20 minutes, okay. I I actually Great.
[1:07:55] I'm excited for this 20 minutes because
[1:07:57] I didn't tell our panelists that I was
[1:07:59] thinking about this. But I wonder in
[1:08:01] fact cuz you now have an opportunity to
[1:08:03] tap into the future cuz this is the
[1:08:06] future of the institution, the
[1:08:08] institution of higher learning, of of
[1:08:10] knowledge production, of research. I
[1:08:12] wonder if any of you all have a question
[1:08:15] for the young scientists.
[1:08:17] If you have anything that you're
[1:08:18] thinking about or something that you're
[1:08:20] wrestling with that you might want a
[1:08:22] young person's take.
[1:08:26] Yes, please.
[1:08:36] Hello, dear Sangha. Thank you so much
[1:08:38] for this wonderful panel.
[1:08:40] Um
[1:08:42] so I I work at the intersection of uh
[1:08:47] music, art, AI, and cognitive
[1:08:49] philosophy.
[1:08:50] So I've been on a on a fun ride this
[1:08:52] whole
[1:08:54] this whole retreat.
[1:08:56] Um but one thing I'm trying to do in my
[1:08:59] work is uh
[1:09:02] develop a moral imagination for AI
[1:09:04] development.
[1:09:06] I love this term moral imagination. I'm
[1:09:08] going to steal it if that's okay.
[1:09:09] All yours.
[1:09:10] Thank you. All yours. Um but this is
[1:09:12] something that I
[1:09:14] would really love
[1:09:16] to know from a younger generation
[1:09:20] uh who is
[1:09:23] of researchers of particularly who are
[1:09:24] growing up in this
[1:09:27] moment where it feels like knowledge
[1:09:29] systems are being disrupted at a very
[1:09:31] deep deep level, the way knowledge is
[1:09:34] constructed
[1:09:35] um by technological inventions.
[1:09:39] And I really want to know what your
[1:09:42] experience is
[1:09:45] of research,
[1:09:47] what research is turning into, and what
[1:09:50] matters still to you
[1:09:53] in research that
[1:09:55] can be supported or is being disturbed
[1:09:59] by uh by AI and and other technological
[1:10:03] developments.
[1:10:07] Thank you, brother.
[1:10:15] Well, I'll hand it over in a second cuz
[1:10:17] now I'm like a geriatric young person up
[1:10:19] here.
[1:10:22] And um I think for me something that's
[1:10:25] always made me really curious that I've
[1:10:27] seen shifting as I was doing my PhD and
[1:10:30] doing my research right now is
[1:10:32] um how qualitative research and
[1:10:36] considering what is data, I hope and I
[1:10:39] think is already changing in the fields
[1:10:41] of science, how we value both
[1:10:44] quantitative and qualitative data. And I
[1:10:46] think as we think about technology and
[1:10:49] how it maybe is a useful tool um that
[1:10:52] I'm really curious how we continue to
[1:10:55] have that
[1:10:57] embodied element and what we consider
[1:11:00] like knowledge production to be. Um I
[1:11:02] have a a certificate from the Critical
[1:11:05] Qualitative Healthcare Center. Shout out
[1:11:07] to CQ at Dalla Lana School of Public
[1:11:09] Health. Uh whose whose motto is doing
[1:11:11] science differently.
[1:11:13] And this always really inspired me
[1:11:14] because I was at the the Faculty of
[1:11:16] Medicine during my my PhD and at the
[1:11:19] Institute of Medical Science. And the
[1:11:21] first day they were like, "Who's
[1:11:22] studying stem cells?" And I was like,
[1:11:24] "Yeah." And then you're like, "These
[1:11:25] different things." And they're like,
[1:11:26] "Did we miss anyone?" And I was like,
[1:11:27] "Qualitative research on mindfulness for
[1:11:29] physician wellness." They're like, "We
[1:11:32] let you do what?"
[1:11:36] And I think um I think it's so important
[1:11:38] as I continue to do research to see
[1:11:41] as what has already I think started to
[1:11:44] trip us up in terms of like, you know,
[1:11:47] we have like a a quantitative survey to
[1:11:49] assess if this mindfulness intervention
[1:11:52] uh had a significant impact. And they're
[1:11:54] like, "It had no significant impact.
[1:11:55] That's all we can report." These kind of
[1:11:57] these boundaries that we've set around
[1:11:59] what science is, what data is, and what
[1:12:02] that can tell us.
[1:12:03] And yet in the studies I've done, say a
[1:12:06] mixed methods, where you have both
[1:12:08] quantitative and qualitative on like a
[1:12:10] quantitative measure. And a hello to
[1:12:11] Sarah. And can I just say, there's 17 of
[1:12:14] us at this retreat from the University
[1:12:16] of Toronto, my students and colleagues.
[1:12:18] Do you want to just raise your hands?
[1:12:19] Cuz I just like my song is here and it's
[1:12:21] so fun to have you. Um
[1:12:23] so another researcher that looks at this
[1:12:25] with me. Um
[1:12:28] that we can kind of see like a a survey
[1:12:30] that says there's no significant impact
[1:12:32] or movement in terms of a practice.
[1:12:36] Um and there's an example I think that
[1:12:37] Sarah shared once that So that was what
[1:12:39] the survey said. That's what the data
[1:12:40] said.
[1:12:42] And that same person in a qualitative
[1:12:44] interview is a mother whose child was
[1:12:47] really unwell
[1:12:48] and had gone through a mindfulness
[1:12:50] course. And when you talk to this woman,
[1:12:54] she talked about the way it had changed
[1:12:57] her relationship to her child's pain to
[1:12:59] have gone through that. And that she was
[1:13:01] able to hold that pain differently.
[1:13:03] So again, the quantitative scale said no
[1:13:07] significant impact.
[1:13:09] And a mother said it had like changed
[1:13:11] her relationship to her child forever.
[1:13:14] And so I I tell this all
[1:13:16] you know, and I'll tell one more story
[1:13:17] like that just to illustrate, which is
[1:13:18] again that we had someone whose, you
[1:13:20] know, biological markers were showing no
[1:13:22] significant impact of a
[1:13:23] mindfulness-based intervention. And this
[1:13:26] young person in a session we had been
[1:13:28] running on mindfulness shared that they
[1:13:30] had constantly been apologizing to their
[1:13:33] parents for having to take them to
[1:13:34] hospital visits. And through this
[1:13:36] practice had realized that they just had
[1:13:39] to thank them. They just had to show
[1:13:40] gratitude. And again, that this had
[1:13:42] changed their everyday life forever.
[1:13:45] No significant data that we could
[1:13:47] report. And so I pose this back to you
[1:13:49] as you say like, "What is research now?"
[1:13:51] I hope research now is expanding the
[1:13:54] boundaries in every field of what is
[1:13:57] science.
[1:13:58] And I hope that as we have tools that
[1:14:00] are like AI, that we can think of them
[1:14:03] like maybe incredible study buddies that
[1:14:06] can help us do some pieces of it. But
[1:14:09] that we are not handing over the
[1:14:12] interpretation or the lived experience.
[1:14:16] And to consider what that means, right?
[1:14:19] And to consider what the boundaries and
[1:14:21] limitations are of a technology we're
[1:14:24] inventing and what we still bring to it
[1:14:26] as humans as as or beyond humans. So
[1:14:29] I'll stop there, but just wanted to
[1:14:30] share those thoughts. And please add.
[1:14:38] I'll just add quickly um
[1:14:42] my research experience may look a little
[1:14:45] bit different than some others um just
[1:14:49] in how
[1:14:50] fieldwork
[1:14:52] um
[1:14:52] is very much lived experience. And
[1:14:57] AI
[1:14:59] mm
[1:15:02] For example, I I we're doing road
[1:15:05] mortality surveys
[1:15:07] of herpetofauna, which are reptiles and
[1:15:10] amphibians. And to ask like for species
[1:15:13] identification
[1:15:15] or like
[1:15:17] Sure, I can get characteristics of of a
[1:15:21] frog.
[1:15:23] But seeing it on the road
[1:15:25] in the road
[1:15:27] is a very different experience.
[1:15:29] And you pick up on different things. So
[1:15:31] for my research, it's it's definitely um
[1:15:37] yeah, how can AI support like there are
[1:15:40] models that and big ecological models
[1:15:44] where there's stochasticity and all this
[1:15:46] randomness and uncertainty. And I think
[1:15:49] acknowledging
[1:15:50] that uncertainty
[1:15:53] that AI doesn't yeah, know everything,
[1:15:56] that we're constantly evolving, the
[1:15:58] planet is
[1:16:00] from one day to the next, from one
[1:16:02] moment, one second, one less than a
[1:16:05] second. Um
[1:16:08] So
[1:16:09] yeah, just
[1:16:12] finding the middle way.
[1:16:21] Yeah, I I think your your question
[1:16:24] landed for me as something I resonated
[1:16:27] with really is that I'm not actually
[1:16:29] sure what the research world is going to
[1:16:31] look like in a world of AI. And that's
[1:16:34] part of the uncertainty that
[1:16:37] characterizes
[1:16:39] the atmosphere I feel like undergraduate
[1:16:41] students or young students are in right
[1:16:42] now. That's what it feels like is
[1:16:46] the future is now. And I feel like a lot
[1:16:48] of us are retreating to the now because
[1:16:50] we don't know what the future is
[1:16:52] essentially. And so we're turning to our
[1:16:54] like supervisors and adults in the room
[1:16:56] to tell us, um so what should we prepare
[1:16:59] ourselves for? And we get like some
[1:17:01] guidance and some advice. But a lot of
[1:17:03] it is we'll all find out collectively.
[1:17:06] And I think that's really scary.
[1:17:10] And it makes me think about what is it
[1:17:13] that humans are now doing
[1:17:16] uh
[1:17:17] when they are interfacing with AI. And
[1:17:20] like the trivially true thing is they're
[1:17:22] putting in the prompts. So maybe that's
[1:17:24] where we start of like
[1:17:26] we design systems and models to ask
[1:17:29] better questions to the AI. And that we
[1:17:32] have like an ethical framework to
[1:17:35] support which questions we choose to
[1:17:37] inquire into.
[1:17:38] And if if we have maybe a the
[1:17:43] either the first or the final say about
[1:17:45] what knowledge do we want to produce
[1:17:48] uh seems like a place to start. But
[1:17:51] let's all figure it out together because
[1:17:53] it's scary to be a young person at this
[1:17:55] time is what what I would say.
[1:17:58] Thank thank you so much again to the
[1:18:00] panel for your insights about the use of
[1:18:03] AI. Um
[1:18:04] uh I um
[1:18:07] from what I'm hearing, I just want to
[1:18:08] sort of sum up because there's a lot of
[1:18:09] richness here. And correct me if I'm
[1:18:11] wrong because I I um
[1:18:14] obviously I I do I study a lot of
[1:18:17] Buddhist stuff, things, right? And uh I
[1:18:21] think that maybe the Buddhist, you know,
[1:18:23] the Buddhist always have something to
[1:18:24] say. They always have a rebuttal.
[1:18:26] And um I think what I'm hearing from you
[1:18:30] is that the raft isn't the shore.
[1:18:32] That uh that AI is a tool to is is a
[1:18:35] means but not an ends to the way that we
[1:18:38] do our work. And the way and and the the
[1:18:41] raft in fact has to be skillfully used.
[1:18:44] And also we have to know when to put put
[1:18:46] it down. You can't take the raft to the
[1:18:48] other shore and then carry it on your
[1:18:49] back and keep walking through the
[1:18:51] mountains and call it a tool, right? And
[1:18:53] so I that's what I'm hearing from. This
[1:18:55] is the insight that I'm gaining from
[1:18:56] you. Like you are illuminating the
[1:18:58] Buddhist word to say, "The raft is not
[1:19:00] the shore, y'all." And it's scary, but
[1:19:02] we all know that it's a raft. And so how
[1:19:05] do when we have the mindfulness that it
[1:19:07] is a raft, how do we use it?
[1:19:10] How do we apply it? And we have to take
[1:19:11] very seriously Jorge's question in the
[1:19:13] morning.
[1:19:15] What kind what what sort of ways in
[1:19:17] which are we uh contributing to the
[1:19:20] power, the hegemonic power of thinking
[1:19:23] when we're using AI, right? And you
[1:19:25] know, that's a big question. So, that's
[1:19:26] not for y'all, but you know, that's
[1:19:28] something for us to sit on. Um I just
[1:19:30] want to say I Danielle, I know you have
[1:19:32] a question, but what we have a friend
[1:19:33] here who has a question and then we'll
[1:19:35] come right to you. Quickly. Got you.
[1:19:37] Okay. Please. First I want to
[1:19:40] my I'm a scientist, a professor, and my
[1:19:43] field is AI in precision oncology, so
[1:19:45] you know the background.
[1:19:47] Um thank you for this. I feel like I
[1:19:49] want to go back and get my students and
[1:19:52] talk with them. It's inspiring and it's
[1:19:54] also a lot of pearls of wisdoms that are
[1:19:57] coming. So, my question comes from
[1:20:00] listening how the field on
[1:20:03] um consciousness is evolving and how
[1:20:06] we're perceiving or learning
[1:20:09] things are different than maybe um a few
[1:20:14] decades back. And for those that have
[1:20:15] been teaching besides science, I also am
[1:20:18] a teacher.
[1:20:19] Um
[1:20:22] In the context of what we understand
[1:20:25] now, and this question is both for Elias
[1:20:27] the teacher and for the students that
[1:20:30] are perceiving this teaching,
[1:20:32] how do you think we should practically
[1:20:35] modify the techniques that we're using?
[1:20:38] So, we we tend to do things in a way
[1:20:41] that is assuming a certain
[1:20:44] uh sort of
[1:20:46] you know, process for the learning.
[1:20:49] And clearly we have evolved, and I don't
[1:20:52] feel that in the at least I'm in a
[1:20:54] university in in United States, you
[1:20:57] know, so
[1:20:58] I and I see a lot of other universities.
[1:21:01] As I see that in Europe is I don't think
[1:21:04] we have evolved the way that we everyday
[1:21:07] teach.
[1:21:08] So, for instance, these concepts that
[1:21:10] Sister Lang Yam and
[1:21:13] Brother Phap Linh are talking about, you
[1:21:15] know, those seeds that we plant and then
[1:21:17] how we wait and how we water.
[1:21:20] I don't feel honestly that I'm using
[1:21:23] that concept as I'm teaching. I just
[1:21:25] deliver concepts and and you know,
[1:21:28] content, and then I ask them back for
[1:21:31] So, I really would like to hear from you
[1:21:35] on both sides and how any of this is
[1:21:39] actually permeating into your actual And
[1:21:42] I'm getting the cookies for the exam.
[1:21:44] I'm doing that, for sure. That's already
[1:21:46] inspiring. But other things that are
[1:21:48] more like in terms of the learning
[1:21:51] process.
[1:21:52] Thank you so much.
[1:22:10] First of all, I think having like
[1:22:11] wonderful teachers always helps cuz
[1:22:14] the the beauty of the planting seeds
[1:22:16] metaphor is that sometimes the person
[1:22:19] that's speaking doesn't even know that
[1:22:20] they're doing that. They're just saying
[1:22:23] things and then that ends up planting a
[1:22:24] seed.
[1:22:26] Uh and so, part of it is just it's
[1:22:29] mystery. It's you show up as your whole
[1:22:31] self, that person shows up as their
[1:22:32] whole self, and then the magic unfolds.
[1:22:34] Uh but like one practice that's helped
[1:22:37] for me is I have three notes on my
[1:22:40] phone.
[1:22:41] One is the questions that carries on
[1:22:43] from high school. So, whenever I hear
[1:22:44] like a really cool question, I write it
[1:22:46] down.
[1:22:46] Uh another is quotes that I like, so
[1:22:49] from readings, from things that people
[1:22:50] say in conversations. If I get a chance,
[1:22:52] I'll write it down. It's a long list of
[1:22:53] quotes.
[1:22:54] Uh and the third one is just like an
[1:22:56] idea log. Um so, it's just random
[1:22:59] thoughts that come to me.
[1:23:02] Sometimes stupid, silly, profound, the
[1:23:04] whole the whole gamut. Uh and so, that's
[1:23:07] almost like me externalizing
[1:23:09] certain things that get planted or I'm
[1:23:11] noticing them getting planted. If I'm
[1:23:13] aware and it's it's all unfolding in a
[1:23:15] in a conscious manner, then I try to
[1:23:17] write it down. And I I just have this
[1:23:19] log now for
[1:23:21] 6 7 years of like thoughts that I've had
[1:23:23] previously. And it's really wonderful to
[1:23:25] see it
[1:23:26] Maybe I've just
[1:23:27] uh reverse engineered journaling, which
[1:23:29] a lot of people do. But it's the the
[1:23:32] part of this practice is that it's um
[1:23:34] organized into these three buckets and
[1:23:35] it's also like
[1:23:37] uh very easy for me to just
[1:23:39] pocket journal, note take, add little
[1:23:42] points. But the
[1:23:45] the beau
[1:23:46] We're doing it? Yeah. Can I Can I Can I
[1:23:49] just help I want to I You're saying
[1:23:51] really great things. I want to unpack it
[1:23:53] because I think this is really helpful,
[1:23:54] right, for the senior scientists in the
[1:23:56] room.
[1:23:57] What What Okay, I know you said it it's
[1:24:00] sort of magic, right? Yes, I accept
[1:24:03] that. I accept that premise and I
[1:24:05] believe that we can get more out of this
[1:24:07] because I think that when
[1:24:10] a senior professor asks a question as
[1:24:11] such, she's very hungry for to
[1:24:13] understand what What are you
[1:24:15] experiencing in the classroom? So, for
[1:24:17] you, and this is for you, too, Lauren,
[1:24:19] so get ready. What are What What makes a
[1:24:23] good professor for you? What makes What
[1:24:25] makes a professor make you feel safe
[1:24:28] enough to push your boundaries, to ask
[1:24:30] the questions, to be fully you in the in
[1:24:33] in the classroom? What What are the What
[1:24:35] are those characteristics? What does she
[1:24:37] do? What does he do? What do they do,
[1:24:39] right, that makes you feel that you can
[1:24:41] be your whole self in the classroom?
[1:24:52] You
[1:24:53] Lauren can go first if you want to think
[1:24:54] about it. Sure. Yeah.
[1:25:00] Um
[1:25:02] I think two people come to mind.
[1:25:06] Uh Ellie and then my herpetology
[1:25:09] professor.
[1:25:11] Um and for me
[1:25:14] what comes to mind is a professor who
[1:25:18] shares both their joy and suffering.
[1:25:23] And is really truly themselves. Just
[1:25:27] shows up and is not
[1:25:31] And even if I was going to say is not
[1:25:33] afraid, but
[1:25:34] we can be afraid. And it's about sharing
[1:25:37] that fear.
[1:25:38] Um
[1:25:40] and giving students the permission to
[1:25:43] also share their joy and their
[1:25:45] suffering.
[1:25:46] And um
[1:25:49] be afraid to make mistakes and not be
[1:25:52] afraid.
[1:25:53] Um and just having that energy be trans
[1:25:58] missed to me from Ellie, from
[1:26:01] Luke.
[1:26:02] Um
[1:26:04] It's It's getting that lighting that
[1:26:06] fire.
[1:26:09] That's That's what came up for me.
[1:26:13] Um
[1:26:14] Adding on to what Lauren said, I really
[1:26:17] love being in classrooms where the
[1:26:19] professor clearly loves what they study
[1:26:22] and that
[1:26:28] that joy and passion rubs off
[1:26:30] cuz very often they cannot contain it.
[1:26:33] And looking at Mark and Ellie.
[1:26:36] Um so, that's one quality. And the other
[1:26:38] thing that I really appreciate is when
[1:26:40] the professor
[1:26:42] is still in touch with what it feels
[1:26:44] like to be a beginner.
[1:26:46] So, I think a lot of really smart people
[1:26:49] are far removed from what it feels like
[1:26:51] to not possess that knowledge, right?
[1:26:52] So, this is the curse of knowledge in
[1:26:53] psychology. I think a lot of professors
[1:26:56] fall into this trap. Uh and so,
[1:26:58] remembering the time when you didn't
[1:27:01] know the things that you knew
[1:27:03] and what it felt like to have a few bits
[1:27:05] and pieces of information present, but
[1:27:08] not this robust careers worth of
[1:27:11] uh knowledge that's built up in your
[1:27:13] store. And so,
[1:27:15] being acutely aware to that and willing
[1:27:18] to share how to build that with students
[1:27:21] along the way goes goes really a long
[1:27:23] way, I think.
[1:27:28] I uh
[1:27:29] I'm so curious for your question, so I I
[1:27:30] made some notes so I would be succinct.
[1:27:33] Um just a resounding yes. And I think
[1:27:36] also, you know, Ty uh once shared Ty
[1:27:39] never gave her a treat
[1:27:41] if it wasn't also for Ty.
[1:27:44] And so, also as a professor, like
[1:27:47] yeah, there's like ethics and
[1:27:49] boundaries, like how much I share. Like
[1:27:50] I don't walk into my classroom and like
[1:27:52] lie on the floor and talk about like,
[1:27:53] you know, the hardest thing.
[1:27:56] Uh so, I'm mindful of that. And I also
[1:27:58] walk in and like if I have a big
[1:28:00] presentation coming up, I tell my class
[1:28:02] I'm preparing for it and what I'm
[1:28:03] nervous about. And then I come back and
[1:28:04] tell them how it went. You know, and so
[1:28:08] looking at where is the line that I have
[1:28:10] drawn boundaries? And from Maslach, the
[1:28:12] like the burnout inventory, one of them
[1:28:14] is when we don't feel like our values
[1:28:17] align with our work. Like burnout
[1:28:19] happens when we don't feel like we can
[1:28:20] be humans at our job, particularly for
[1:28:22] clinicians, but this goes across. And
[1:28:24] so, have I drawn the boundary of who I
[1:28:27] am as a professor? Have I drawn that too
[1:28:29] tightly so that I'm not myself? That
[1:28:31] causes me harm and it doesn't invite the
[1:28:34] humans around me to be humans with me.
[1:28:36] So, the the little illustration there is
[1:28:37] I I was running an intervention at the
[1:28:39] hospital for six children where some of
[1:28:41] us are here and work from and for
[1:28:43] adolescents with chronic pain. And the
[1:28:44] physician I was working with there was
[1:28:46] sitting next to me and my boundary of
[1:28:48] how much I shared was at a different
[1:28:50] point. And that physician's feedback was
[1:28:52] over the course of running this workshop
[1:28:54] with me, realized
[1:28:55] because again, as a physician, there's
[1:28:56] like how much am I sharing myself with
[1:28:58] my patient? There's, you know, set of
[1:29:00] ethics and morals for the spaces we're
[1:29:02] in, absolutely. And they'd drawn the
[1:29:04] boundary too tight. They released it
[1:29:06] enough. And they shared that over this
[1:29:08] time of teaching with me and seeing the
[1:29:10] parts of myself I was okay to share with
[1:29:12] their patients, they start sharing a
[1:29:14] little bit more.
[1:29:16] Their patient would say, "How are you
[1:29:17] today?" And they would say,
[1:29:19] "I'm having a hard day. It's really
[1:29:21] busy."
[1:29:22] And that changed how that patient was
[1:29:23] listening to their feedback for their
[1:29:25] care. So, just this question, right?
[1:29:27] Like, how do we bring our whole selves?
[1:29:28] And it actually can replenish us and the
[1:29:30] people around us. Um I also want to just
[1:29:33] like some practical things. I've been
[1:29:34] asked uh by the organizing team, who's
[1:29:36] whispering in your ear, to do one of the
[1:29:38] workshops and to like nerd out on
[1:29:40] pedagogy and how I bring this into
[1:29:42] classrooms. So, if you want to talk
[1:29:43] more, we're going to do some of that.
[1:29:45] Maybe I'll rope in some students and
[1:29:46] colleagues. So, we can talk a lot more.
[1:29:48] So, the just two other little seeds I'll
[1:29:49] plant now is if you're not familiar with
[1:29:51] this term, the hidden curriculum,
[1:29:53] it's this idea that as as teachers or
[1:29:57] really any space we have influence, but
[1:29:58] particularly as teachers, the curriculum
[1:30:01] is like the little bit of the iceberg we
[1:30:02] can see, that maybe the technical skills
[1:30:04] that we're teaching. The hidden
[1:30:06] curriculum is every quality of who we
[1:30:08] are in the room.
[1:30:09] And that that is actually where so much
[1:30:11] learning is being picked up. It's beyond
[1:30:13] words. It's our being. And that really
[1:30:16] matters. And we don't see it. Making the
[1:30:19] invisible visible. So, I invite each of
[1:30:20] us in our spheres of influence where we
[1:30:22] teach to look out for the hidden
[1:30:24] curriculum. How you call on a student?
[1:30:26] Or if a student asks you a question, are
[1:30:28] there some students that you said,
[1:30:29] "That's a great question." and three you
[1:30:31] didn't? And how did that make them feel?
[1:30:33] Right? So, just every one of these
[1:30:36] hidden pieces. Um and finally, like the
[1:30:38] deep listening that we're learning here,
[1:30:41] that is learning. Right? Like, in a
[1:30:43] classroom, you have the opportunity to
[1:30:46] teach your technical skills,
[1:30:48] and you have this incredible opportunity
[1:30:50] to teach loving speech and deep
[1:30:52] listening.
[1:30:53] And the pedagogical rationale for that
[1:30:55] is that you're helping students to have
[1:30:57] a more efficient way of learning
[1:31:00] knowledge. So, play with it.
[1:31:05] Thank you so much again for profound
[1:31:07] insights. Um
[1:31:09] we have time for one more question, but
[1:31:11] before we go to Danielle's question, I'm
[1:31:12] going to cite Danielle real quick from
[1:31:14] her morning session where she talked
[1:31:16] about it's really what I'm hearing is
[1:31:17] really it's all about creating that
[1:31:19] space.
[1:31:20] Right? Creating that space for people to
[1:31:22] show up and show out fully.
[1:31:24] And one of the one of the hard parts of
[1:31:26] that thing is that you have to have that
[1:31:28] space for yourself. And you have to be
[1:31:30] confident enough to hold that space for
[1:31:32] yourself to be fully who you are before
[1:31:34] you can create that space for other
[1:31:36] folks to show up to be fully who they
[1:31:39] are. Or else it's a farce.
[1:31:41] And people can pick up when you're fake,
[1:31:43] right? And so, to to to be able to do
[1:31:45] that, it requires us to have a
[1:31:48] a relationship with oneself.
[1:31:51] And you know, because I'm very
[1:31:53] fascinated with intellectual history,
[1:31:56] for those in the room who are thinking
[1:31:57] about why do we have why are classrooms
[1:32:00] designed the way they are, a highly
[1:32:02] recommended book is The Pedagogy of the
[1:32:04] Oppressed.
[1:32:06] And uh that book sort of gives us the
[1:32:08] history of why our classrooms feel so
[1:32:10] transactional.
[1:32:12] Why we feel like a such a disconnect to
[1:32:15] the students we we are hoping to build
[1:32:17] community with. Right? And it's a great
[1:32:20] tool a foundation to build your moral
[1:32:22] imagination. And with that, I'll pass it
[1:32:24] to the last question to Danielle uh for
[1:32:27] our panelist. Thank you.
[1:32:31] Nah, I'm so appreciating your weaving as
[1:32:34] we journey through the conversation.
[1:32:37] And
[1:32:38] Ellie, you spoke something at the very
[1:32:39] beginning that really touched me. You
[1:32:41] spoke of your heartbreak when Ty wasn't
[1:32:45] properly cited either in the paper by
[1:32:47] the doctor or by the person who
[1:32:50] represented that work in the practice.
[1:32:53] And in giving that example, you give
[1:32:55] life to something that's very present
[1:32:58] right now. And part of me is like, do I
[1:33:00] want to talk through my shared
[1:33:02] qualitative nerdery into this point? Do
[1:33:04] I want to speak So, I'm not sure which
[1:33:07] gate I'll enter it through.
[1:33:11] But the I
[1:33:12] the reality
[1:33:14] that there is extraction, that there is
[1:33:18] the issue of knowledges and power. You
[1:33:21] spoke of hegemonic power.
[1:33:24] What it means to decolonize research,
[1:33:27] what it means to honor ancestral science
[1:33:30] not as a thing of the past, very much as
[1:33:32] a thing of the present and of course of
[1:33:34] the future. The way in which that is
[1:33:36] held with integrity. This is kind of a
[1:33:39] banger of a question that's for you and
[1:33:41] for the room and for the week, which is
[1:33:45] how one of the most inspiring
[1:33:47] researchers I've worked with in the last
[1:33:49] few years, her name is Pratimima
[1:33:51] Muniyappa, and she works at MIT in the
[1:33:53] Media Lab.
[1:33:54] And she as an indigenous woman of India
[1:33:58] works with tribes there, but her work is
[1:34:00] about decolonizing space because she's
[1:34:03] like, we might have a shot there of not
[1:34:07] doing the thing we're doing here. And
[1:34:10] it's an interesting question for the
[1:34:11] time because of so many material forces
[1:34:14] we're all aware of.
[1:34:16] But this question of what does it mean
[1:34:18] to work in the system of academe, of
[1:34:22] research, of all the fields present in
[1:34:24] this room?
[1:34:26] And to
[1:34:28] dissolve them lovingly within like the
[1:34:31] imaginal goo of a butterfly
[1:34:35] cocoon so that it may shift. But in a
[1:34:39] compassionate way and a conscious way
[1:34:41] and a way that is
[1:34:42] held in the togetherness. And
[1:34:45] there was some Dharma family earlier
[1:34:47] that spoke into this very beautifully
[1:34:50] after the first session. The question is
[1:34:52] really how to hold more space for that
[1:34:57] and bringing that into every room, every
[1:35:00] conversation. But I feel like the point
[1:35:03] I can put on it is just what does it
[1:35:04] mean to
[1:35:06] decenter the things that are the gravity
[1:35:09] of the system?
[1:35:12] And how are you Again, big question. How
[1:35:15] are you working with that? Like our
[1:35:17] brother here who said, "Like, I'm loving
[1:35:20] the old ones now. Like, how y'all doing
[1:35:22] it?" I feel like I'm in the listening
[1:35:24] here of like, what is emerging with you
[1:35:27] and your friends?
[1:35:29] Because I feel like your your wisdom of
[1:35:32] there are these practices too, of
[1:35:33] course, of sourcing from the future
[1:35:36] versus the ancestral is not just the
[1:35:38] past. What does it mean to source from
[1:35:40] the future to inform the present? We
[1:35:43] need that wisdom and that vision. So,
[1:35:45] that's my
[1:35:46] um very, very long again, I apologize
[1:35:48] for the second time today,
[1:35:50] question of like, how to be with these
[1:35:53] complex things that want to change and
[1:35:57] uh need to be hospiced in the way that
[1:35:59] they do that.
[1:36:02] Thank you for this uh juicy question.
[1:36:04] And um I'm going to jump in with some
[1:36:07] notes and then pass the mic cuz I think
[1:36:09] it's also fun to feel this river that's
[1:36:11] flowing. Uh and I'm so grateful actually
[1:36:14] to feel that river behind me. I can look
[1:36:16] over and see Ty in our our ancestral
[1:36:18] altar. So, I think it's beautiful to
[1:36:20] just like be in this stream of wisdom. I
[1:36:22] feel their hands on my back. I'm going
[1:36:24] to put some and then put my hands on
[1:36:26] these backs and see where we're flowing
[1:36:28] forward together.
[1:36:29] Um first, just like a resounding yes in
[1:36:32] that, you know, we can
[1:36:34] uh give our lived experience and know
[1:36:36] that this is, as you said beautifully,
[1:36:37] like a question for all of us. And as a
[1:36:39] research field, like, what knowledge are
[1:36:41] we centering and not centering? What is
[1:36:43] still margin to the center? Like, you
[1:36:46] know, I wanted to publish my findings in
[1:36:48] like a biomedical journal, which like,
[1:36:50] yay, I did. And and I could feel how
[1:36:53] margin to the center, you know, research
[1:36:56] on on mindfulness, on compassion, and
[1:36:58] qualitative research. I I wrote to the
[1:37:00] editors of this journal, CMAJ Open. You
[1:37:02] can go find my findings if you want. I
[1:37:05] was like, "Do you publish qualitative
[1:37:06] research? It says that you do, but I
[1:37:08] can't find any." And they're like, "We
[1:37:10] do, but it rarely meets our standards."
[1:37:12] You know, so I could feel that. And I'm
[1:37:13] proud to have the acceptance letter
[1:37:15] back.
[1:37:16] And so, this question though that you're
[1:37:18] asking, which is
[1:37:20] what do we view again, like I said
[1:37:21] earlier, what is research and data?
[1:37:23] What's been marginalized? And then also
[1:37:25] um one of the indigenous librarians I
[1:37:27] work with at the University of Toronto
[1:37:29] has questions about our peer review
[1:37:30] process. Who has access to that? So,
[1:37:32] even in our body of knowledge that we
[1:37:35] begin citing, you know, who can even be
[1:37:38] included in that? So, I think as a as a
[1:37:40] body of researchers, this is a really
[1:37:42] important question.
[1:37:43] Um and for me, I just wanted to share a
[1:37:45] little bit about some of the ways I've
[1:37:47] played with this in my work. Uh when I
[1:37:50] went to do my PhD, I wanted to bring in
[1:37:53] Ty's teachings. Uh and I had many
[1:37:55] reasons for this on a rationale of like,
[1:37:57] he's looking at pragmatic applied. So,
[1:38:00] this applies to physicians are very
[1:38:02] practical.
[1:38:03] And I was curious. I had a you know, how
[1:38:05] do I the the terminology we sometimes
[1:38:08] use in like decolonizing pedagogy would
[1:38:10] be, how am I maybe appreciating the
[1:38:13] knowledge I'm using rather than
[1:38:14] appropriating? And that's, you know, a
[1:38:16] really deep question. For me, part of
[1:38:19] that uh
[1:38:20] comes from indigenous research
[1:38:21] methodologies that have been cultivated
[1:38:23] particularly on the lands of Canada. Um
[1:38:26] which is a proposal to have an ongoing
[1:38:30] iterative reciprocal process throughout
[1:38:32] the entire phase of a research study
[1:38:34] with the communities upon which you are
[1:38:38] drawing and building knowledge. And what
[1:38:40] this actually looked like practically,
[1:38:42] remember, we're engaged in applied
[1:38:43] Buddhism here. We like to get real
[1:38:44] practical. I had a program advisory
[1:38:47] committee, a PAC, at the academy. And we
[1:38:50] made what we lovingly called the MAC,
[1:38:51] which was my monastic advisory
[1:38:53] committee. And so, we officially made
[1:38:55] part of the work to have monastics in
[1:38:56] this tradition, Brother Phap Linh,
[1:38:58] Brother Phap Dung, Sister Hien, and
[1:39:00] Brother Phap, who actually came along
[1:39:02] the ride for all phases and gave input.
[1:39:05] And actually, the day I was publishing,
[1:39:07] I was WhatsApping with my committee
[1:39:09] group about a citation. And the
[1:39:10] monastics, Phap Linh gave a big call out
[1:39:13] to me
[1:39:13] make sure I was using the term applied
[1:39:15] Buddhism because Thay had iterated. And
[1:39:17] so, coming back to a word you said this
[1:39:19] morning that I'll just drop in before I
[1:39:21] say too much else cuz there's so much to
[1:39:23] say, which is this deep question I think
[1:39:26] we can ask ourselves as researchers, as
[1:39:29] practitioners, and humans, how am I
[1:39:32] doing this in a non-performative way?
[1:39:35] I love that word. And to really ask
[1:39:37] myself, like with my practice,
[1:39:40] you know, am I saying the morning gatha
[1:39:42] so I can tell someone later that I said
[1:39:44] it?
[1:39:45] Or am I just Do I practice that every
[1:39:48] day? And if I'm the only one who knows
[1:39:50] that, that's enough. Like to me like
[1:39:52] what is the non-performative nature of
[1:39:54] doing research? And I think so much of
[1:39:56] research is pushing us to be
[1:39:57] performative, right? Cuz to get the
[1:39:59] grant, you say all the ways you're
[1:40:00] amazing.
[1:40:02] Um and so, I just I love this question.
[1:40:04] Like what is What can research really
[1:40:06] look like when we bring our whole
[1:40:08] hearts, this love we're talking about?
[1:40:10] Um
[1:40:11] and to be non-performative in the ways
[1:40:13] that we are decolonizing. I don't know
[1:40:15] that I know the answer, but what is
[1:40:18] non-extraction
[1:40:19] um
[1:40:20] and I'll just say that for me, when I
[1:40:23] received the lamp here, I Some of you
[1:40:25] will keep hearing me say this. You
[1:40:26] receive a poem back from your ancestors.
[1:40:29] Um and the last line of my poem is a
[1:40:32] boundless stream of love enters into the
[1:40:35] sea of suffering.
[1:40:36] Um and I've just been walking with that,
[1:40:39] like imagining myself being the stream
[1:40:41] when I go into like a committee meeting
[1:40:43] or like a classroom. Like what is my
[1:40:46] deepest aspiration? How is that flowing
[1:40:48] into the space? And so, yeah, I'll I'll
[1:40:51] end there, but just to say like yeah,
[1:40:53] what are we marginalizing? What hasn't
[1:40:55] been included in the research? How do we
[1:40:57] maybe take up space to make space?
[1:41:00] Um and maybe I see now with the mic I
[1:41:03] was going to hand it to both of you just
[1:41:04] to plant a seed that I'm
[1:41:06] I'm curious from both of you, yeah, what
[1:41:09] What do you want to see? I um I have
[1:41:12] gotten a
[1:41:13] signal from the powers that be that it
[1:41:17] is it is time and I'm not going to
[1:41:19] say what the signal is, but this is the
[1:41:21] powers. And if you want to continue the
[1:41:23] conversation, we have so many
[1:41:25] opportunities to continue the
[1:41:26] conversation.
[1:41:28] Um first um I want to thank the
[1:41:30] panelists. You know, I this I know this
[1:41:33] was a lot a lot to ask a lot from the
[1:41:35] young scientists to come up and I know
[1:41:37] there was a lot of nerves. And I want to
[1:41:39] say acknowledge how phenomenal you you
[1:41:42] both you both were Y'all three of you
[1:41:44] were
[1:41:45] um and how amazing and thank you so much
[1:41:47] for sharing your insight and your vision
[1:41:50] and all the your aspirations for what is
[1:41:53] to come and what is happening now. And
[1:41:56] um
[1:41:57] I'll wrap up really quick the session
[1:41:58] with a really quick stories as I'm
[1:42:00] thinking about the questions that are
[1:42:01] being asked and the answers that are
[1:42:03] being given um is that uh
[1:42:07] there was a little pamphlet, a little
[1:42:08] letter that Thay had written to the
[1:42:10] children of or the children of boat
[1:42:13] people and boat people.
[1:42:16] And he he writes this whole long letter
[1:42:18] after, you know, we've you know, many
[1:42:20] families have escaped Vietnam by boat.
[1:42:23] And he There's a line in there that's so
[1:42:26] comforting and so like when I read it, I
[1:42:27] was like, oh, okay.
[1:42:29] In the end, he says, "Listen, you are
[1:42:32] where you are because you're you you
[1:42:34] have been sent as a gift from your
[1:42:36] ancestors to wherever you land.
[1:42:40] And you bring your insight to that
[1:42:42] place. And you transform it in the ways
[1:42:45] you can transform it, right? And this
[1:42:48] goes back to Brother Fap Linh's talk on
[1:42:50] the seeds Sister Langiem and Brother Fap
[1:42:51] Linh's talk on the seeds about planting
[1:42:54] these seeds, right? Cuz sometimes when
[1:42:56] we're thinking, how do we decolonialize
[1:42:58] these institutions? That's a huge
[1:42:59] endeavor. That's a big question.
[1:43:03] And
[1:43:04] as we go back to the Yogacara piece of
[1:43:07] Buddhist philosophy, every time we
[1:43:09] disrupt something that is habitual,
[1:43:12] whether it is an institutional process,
[1:43:14] whether it is an assumption of how
[1:43:16] things are, in the Yogacara Yogacara
[1:43:18] philosophy, they call that a revolution.
[1:43:22] Right? So, the Buddhists again, they
[1:43:23] have a response to this.
[1:43:25] The revolution begins in us, and the
[1:43:28] revolution will not be televised, but
[1:43:30] it's still going on.
[1:43:32] And so, to think of ourselves also as
[1:43:34] bastions of And I'll say this with my
[1:43:37] whole heart, power, of influence, of a
[1:43:40] source for inspiration and revolution,
[1:43:42] even when we think we're not
[1:43:43] revolutionizing anything. When you
[1:43:45] disrupt a moment of violence, when you
[1:43:48] disrupt a moment of
[1:43:50] anything that is not that it brings harm
[1:43:52] to another,
[1:43:53] believe me, that's a revolution for the
[1:43:56] individual and the collective
[1:43:57] consciousness. And so, thank you very
[1:43:59] much for for listening and planting
[1:44:01] these seeds with us. And may the
[1:44:03] revolution continue.